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US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

bbc.com

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Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#61

Post by lm28469 »

wilg wrote: post #37
sourcecodeplz wrote: post #17

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

I'd be curious to know how this actually breaks down at the end of the day, in dollars, if you were to fully account for all the money. For example, factor in the cost of getting nonemployer health insurance through an exchange, whatever the equivalent of a pension would be such as using an IRA, etc. (Not sure what "payroll and income taxes" mean in this context.) I don't have a clear sense of how it all nets out, be…

If you remove pension and healthcare alone that's probably not too far from 30% in most EU country (+ the matching from your employer), you also lose paid vacation, parental leave, unemployment benefits, &c. I'm not even sure getting twice the hourly rate would make up for it, at least not for the average Joe.

Now it's all nice and fun when you're an IT contractor charging 60$+ per hour, when you're a uber driver making on average 18$ an hour (according to google) it's not that bright, and you still have to maintain your car, pay for gas, &c.

> how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out

If you're at the bottom, as uber contractors are, you'll have a better time in Europe, if you're in the top tier and can afford private health insurance, private unemployment benefits, &c. you probably have better services in the US, at a cost

I lived in both systems and I'd say the EU one brings an overall peace of mind you can't replicate in the US unless you're quite rich

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#62

Post by oneplane »

SllX wrote: post #16
uoaei wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> At what point does blatant advertising/propaganda meaningfully undermine human agency? Regularly and governments live and die on their ability to advertise their policies and propagate their message in a convincing fashion. There were plenty of us that didn’t need to be advertised to to put a bullet through AB5’s heart in a manner humiliating to the Bill’s chief sponsor despite the deficiencies in Prop 22 for getti…

> In whichever way campaigning influenced the outcome, the vote was the vote and the vote followed the laws of California and the United States.

While that might be technically true in the absolutist way, bad things are still bad, even if it followed all the technicalities.

If we play "the vote was the vote and the vote followed the laws" and it ends up making it mandatory for everyone to cut off their thumbs, do you really think the population would just go "oh well" and grab some pruners?

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#63

Post by sokoloff »

oneplane wrote: post #62
SllX wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At what point does blatant advertising/propaganda meaningfully undermine human agency? Regularly and governments live and die on their ability to advertise their policies and propagate their message in a convincing fashion. There were plenty of us that didn’t need to be advertised to to put a bullet through AB5’s heart in a manner humiliating to the Bill’s chief sponsor despite the deficiencies in Prop 22 for getti…

> In whichever way campaigning influenced the outcome, the vote was the vote and the vote followed the laws of California and the United States. While that might be technically true in the absolutist way, bad things are still bad, even if it followed all the technicalities. If we play "the vote was the vote and the vote followed the laws" and it ends up making it mandatory for everyone to cut off their thumbs, do you…

No, I’d expect that people would wake up, seek and gain a stay of the law, and repeal it in the next ballot measure cycle. (For the right price, I’d literally bet my own thumb on that being the outcome.)

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#64

Post by notahacker »

throwawaythrow1 wrote: post #55
kwhitefoot wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general rule in Europe is that "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." That is employment and tax authorities don't care what your and your employer call yourselves but they do care about the conditions under which you work. In the UK, for instance, if you are a contractor you can send someone else in your stead to do the work, if you are an employee you obviously can't. S…

IR35 is a ridiculous law. "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." I can walk and quack rather convincingly like a duck, but I'm not a duck and any casual observer would agree. The metaphor provided puts the emphasis on the behaviour of the individual, whereas the behaviour of the hirer/employer is rarely considered... For example, can the contractor be promoted? Can they be gi…

The point of IR35 wasn't to make it easy for employers to relieve themselves of their usual obligations to people they demand exclusive full time work from by saying "sign this anti-Union waiver and you'll get tax breaks (and so will we!)"

And criteria like whether the nominal contractor has any choice of workplace and schedule is absolutely about the behaviour of the hirer/employer.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#65

Post by iLoveOncall »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #19

Gig workers aren't quite contractors and aren't quite employees. Maybe need a third class of worker.

Paid per hour, free to chose their working hours, free to work for multiple employers at the same time, etc. How are they not contractors?

They're way more contractors than the contractors that were working 9 to 5, 5 days a week, for years, for my FAANG.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#66

Post by iLoveOncall »

atchoo wrote: post #44
alchemist1e9 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the prevalence and costs of Uber and food delivery in European cities compare to US cities? I don’t know myself, just wondering how this difference effects the end consumer.

Uber taxis have died in my UK city. The quality was always weak compared to the very good taxi services which was perfectly fine pre-Uber. Uber had vouchers and a marketing push that made it a thing but people can't get rides now. Rental electric scooters are dominant now. Food delivery use is declining with the cost of living problems people are facing. Anecdotally I saw it was making people feel bad so it's a habit…

Which UK city do you live in? In London, real taxis are 2 or 3 times as expensive as Uber, so Uber and others are very much in use, both for taxi services and for food delivery services.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#67

Post by IshKebab »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #19

Gig workers aren't quite contractors and aren't quite employees. Maybe need a third class of worker.

Yeah people have real difficulty dealing with things that don't fit neatly into existing categories. I imagine when smartphones were first introduced people had debates about whether they were phones or computers.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#68

Post by Eumenes »

thejackgoode wrote: post #6

Hope eventually it’ll be it’s own category. Contractors are not generally incentivized by UX patterns, gamification and bonus systems to work more.

Navigating the bureaucracy of a corporation as a consultant certainly seems like gamification

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#69

Post by counttheforks »

throwawaythrow1 wrote: post #55
kwhitefoot wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general rule in Europe is that "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." That is employment and tax authorities don't care what your and your employer call yourselves but they do care about the conditions under which you work. In the UK, for instance, if you are a contractor you can send someone else in your stead to do the work, if you are an employee you obviously can't. S…

IR35 is a ridiculous law. "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." I can walk and quack rather convincingly like a duck, but I'm not a duck and any casual observer would agree. The metaphor provided puts the emphasis on the behaviour of the individual, whereas the behaviour of the hirer/employer is rarely considered... For example, can the contractor be promoted? Can they be gi…

I doubt that, but feel free to upload a youtube video.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#70

Post by diceduckmonk »

CSMastermind wrote: post #2

https://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/A163655.PDF ^ Actual court ruling which is linked in the article itself. I find the article's headline misleading. The court ruled that a proposition that was passed by voters in California which classified these drivers as contractors was mostly constitutional and would be allowed to have the effect of law, noting that California's legislative branch was free to change th…

> I find the article's headline misleading.

I see Uber stock is up 6% pre-market. That suggests to me investors thinks Uber's liabilities are reduced as a result of this ruling.

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