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US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

bbc.com

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Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#51

Post by [deleted] »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #46
chii wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what properties and laws would apply to this class of worker?

The general rule in Europe is that "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." That is employment and tax authorities don't care what your and your employer call yourselves but they do care about the conditions under which you work. In the UK, for instance, if you are a contractor you can send someone else in your stead to do the work, if you are an employee you obviously can't. S…

[deleted]

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#52

Post by yieldcrv »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #49
doktorhladnjak wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has a “worker” [0] classification between employee and true independent contractor. It provides protections like minimum wage and time off while preserving freedom about when and how someone works. It seems like it would fit this case well, but I doubt it will ever happen. Unions are the major force pushing for gig workers to be classified as employees because they’d be able to unionize. [0] https://www.gov.uk…

> Unions are the major force pushing for gig workers to be classified as employees because they’d be able to unionize. What stops them unionising?

NRLB doesn't offer a clear way for contractors to unionize. By clear way, it might be "no way".

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#53

Post by bagels »

wilg wrote: post #38
unfairly4820 wrote: post #7

California Labor Union Leader: "Our system is broken. It would be an understatement to say we are disappointed by this decision allowing companies to buy their way out of our state’s labor laws" Uber Executive: "Our system is working. We’re pleased that the court respected the will of the people by upholding a voter-approved law.”

Is there some reason to suspect that there was corruption involved with this ruling? Or is this just general fearmongering?

The buying was the money spent to ferociously promote prop 22, not paying off judges.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#54

Post by pas »

sourcecodeplz wrote: post #17

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

You can deliver people or food as an entrepreneur (sub)contractor in Hungary.

I would be surprised if all 20+ countries were unanimous on this.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#55

Post by throwawaythrow1 »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #46
chii wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what properties and laws would apply to this class of worker?

The general rule in Europe is that "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." That is employment and tax authorities don't care what your and your employer call yourselves but they do care about the conditions under which you work. In the UK, for instance, if you are a contractor you can send someone else in your stead to do the work, if you are an employee you obviously can't. S…

IR35 is a ridiculous law.

"If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck."

I can walk and quack rather convincingly like a duck, but I'm not a duck and any casual observer would agree.

The metaphor provided puts the emphasis on the behaviour of the individual, whereas the behaviour of the hirer/employer is rarely considered... For example, can the contractor be promoted? Can they be given a disciplinary procedure with Union representation? If the contractor has an accident, does the insurance of the company pay for it or does the insurance of the contractor pay for it? Does the contractor have protections from bullying and discrimination?

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#56

Post by pas »

alchemist1e9 wrote: post #21
sourcecodeplz wrote: post #17

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

How does the prevalence and costs of Uber and food delivery in European cities compare to US cities? I don’t know myself, just wondering how this difference effects the end consumer.

Budapest (no labor contract required for either):

Taxi services have licensing requirements and the rates are set by the government (Uber left the market), typical ride is 10-30 EUR. (Eg. airport to city center is 30+, also around 30+ min.)

Food delivery can be done by anyone, no licensing requirements. Around 700 HUF (about 2 EUR).

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#57

Post by furyg3 »

alchemist1e9 wrote: post #21
sourcecodeplz wrote: post #17

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

How does the prevalence and costs of Uber and food delivery in European cities compare to US cities? I don’t know myself, just wondering how this difference effects the end consumer.

Here in Amsterdam, the only drivers that are allowed to drive for Uber are licensed taxi drivers. They tried using scabs here but the city ended that pretty quickly.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#58

Post by weberer »

sourcecodeplz wrote: post #17

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

No, that is wrong. At least in Finland, Wolt drivers are independent contractors. Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits. It is exploitative and the current government doesn't want to do anything to change it.

Whenever I see a post on HN that says "In Europe, blah blah blah" it is bullshit 80% of the time. Sometimes the poster is extrapolating laws from his country to the other 43 countries on the continent, but usually it is just completely made up bullshit based on wishful thinking. I've learned to never trust these comments unless they provide a source.

https://wolt.com/pages/en/fin/courier-center-faq-finland#lin...

>Are Courier Partners employees of Wolt?

>No. Courier Partners are not employees of Wolt, they don’t have a boss or predetermined work shifts. Wolt Courier Partners are contractors, Wolt pays for each task a Courier Partner has committed to deliver and has completed.

>Like all entrepreneurs, Courier Partners are in charge of their own: taxes, driving log, insurances, compulsory motor vehicle insurance (if they make deliveries with a car or a scooter), pension security, and financial security during periods of illness and unemployment.

>Like all entrepreneurs/independent contractors, Courier Partners are in charge of their own financial security during periods of illness and unemployment. In practice, this means that Wolt does not provide compensation for sick leave or health services on days when Courier Partners are not able to make deliveries.

>Everyone who has a municipality of residence in Finland is entitled to use public healthcare services. As an entrepreneur, Courier Partners are encouraged to consider arranging occupational health care coverage for themselves. Public medical centers and private hospitals can help Courier Partners with matters regarding occupational health care.

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#59

Post by throwaway56960 »

sourcecodeplz wrote: post #17

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes. Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

No. I live at the borders of 3 EU states (PL, CZ, SK) where in each the drivers/couriers are contractors (self-employed).

Re: US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

#60

Post by oneplane »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #43
NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lawmakers cannot change if they so choose... They can modify it, You know here all this time I thought that "modify" is a synonym of "change". So can lawmakers modify it or can they not modify it?

change and modify some times have different meanings in legal systems and can apply to versioning of the laws (don't know if that is the case here) as an example you might say Law X section 7 says Uber drivers are contractors. In some systems a change would be to remove this provision or to say the opposite. a modification might be to add: The definition of contractor will follow the amended definition of contractor…

So in essence, the law system uses different rules for language and applies it to everyone, but almost everyone uses language in a people way, not in a legal way. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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