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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#541

Post by cmui »

danans wrote: post #535

It's great to see more heat pump options being developed, free from the assumptions of traditional manufacturers. Combining air quality and ventilation with the same appliance is great (most houses lack systems for either of those). I don't see it addressed whether or not their fresh air systems will do heat-recovery. This is also a big energy saver when fresh air is being introduced, and would eliminate the need for…

Wholeheartedly agree with the comment about oversized heat pumps - this also has the side effect of lots of homes in the Northeast being told they can't use their duct work without a major upgrade, or an unnecessary electrical panel upgrade.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#542

Post by briHass »

simplyaccont wrote: post #359
briHass wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point; I forgot to mention the reliability/environmental aspect as well. Most DIY, and even pro installs, of mini splits fail due to leaking flare connections, which must be made in the field. Modern refrigerants operate at very high (400+ PSI) pressures, and getting a perfect seal is critical. Having the entire refidgerant loop sealed and tested at the factory significantly decrease the common issues and preven…

there are diy systems with threaded connectors, pre-vacuumed units and linesets filled with refrigerants.

True, but those linesets introduce other downsides. They can't be cut to length, so you often have to have unsightly loops of extra line set somewhere, and the loops can potentially trap the oils that mix with the refrigerant to lubricate the compressor. They're also much more expensive, and anecdotally, I've heard of leaks from over/under tightening the threaded connections.

Not to mention, installing them without an EPA 608 certification is technically illegal. MrCool and others that use them are relying on the EPA being understaffed and unlikely to pursue homeowners, but their stance on it is perfectly clear:

"Is technician certification required to install an R-410A mini-split?

Yes. Adding or removing refrigerant from a mini-split as part of installation, and/or connecting or disconnecting hoses or pre-charged lines requires a section 608 technician certification. Activities reasonably expected to violate the integrity of the refrigerant circuit include but are not limited to: Attaching or detaching hoses and gauges to and from the appliance; adding or removing refrigerant; adding or removing components; and cutting the refrigerant line."

https://www.epa.gov/section608/epas-refrigerant-management-p...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#544

Post by cmui »

sokoloff wrote: post #494
nerdface wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not a bad route to go if you enjoy/feel comfortable doing the work and don't care about air quality, smart thermostat integration, etc You're insinuating that doing the work yourself means you'll have poor air quality, poor thermostat integration etc. That's not true at all. If you've gone to the trouble to do a DIY install then you're now already experienced enough to install a heat-recovery ventilator to…

Reading their comment slightly overly charitably vs what was written (but almost surely in-line with what was intended), they were contrasting their unit that has a HEPA filter bundled as part of their unit and that is not part of the Mr Cool unit.

Exactly. There's lots of stuff you can stitch together yourself, and if you're a DIY person, its more fun/rewarding to do it that way. I think the majority of homeowners will want something that doesn't require doing the install themselves, or having to worry about overall system integration.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#545

Post by brooksbp »

samstave wrote: post #340
cmui wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

Crazy idea: Pressure plates in the streets which are pressed when cars drive over them - pushing fluids through your coils, but connected to multiple units on either side. Harvest the kinetic energy of cars passing through the streets to apply pressure to pumps that feed fluids through the system, capturing that energy in a dynamo way? Put these plates in every high trafficked area. Piping the pumping action from par…

I can already see the "Avoid bumpy roads" option right next to the "Avoid tolls", "Avoid ferries", ...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#546

Post by briHass »

cmui wrote: post #452
briHass wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point; I forgot to mention the reliability/environmental aspect as well. Most DIY, and even pro installs, of mini splits fail due to leaking flare connections, which must be made in the field. Modern refrigerants operate at very high (400+ PSI) pressures, and getting a perfect seal is critical. Having the entire refidgerant loop sealed and tested at the factory significantly decrease the common issues and preven…

Though somewhat controversial, ZoomLock also seems promising. Agreed though, there are obvious benefits to having a fully factory sealed refrigerant loop.

I'll wait for more reliability data on ZoomLock, but it could easily prove to be the optimal solution. Unfortunately, it doesn't help the DIYer, because the crimping tools are outrageously expensive, and clearly aimed at a pro doing enough installs to make the time-savings worth it.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#547

Post by sokoloff »

rnk wrote: post #531
abakker wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently got quoted $17k for 2 zone mini split. I bought the tools, instructions, and watched youtube and spent $4500 total. At that savings, I don't need a warranty. I can just buy and install another system if it fails.

Can you explain a little more what you did? Just a little bit, like what brand, did you replace an existing home system. Who did the electrical, did you need duct work? I already have a forced gas system, you can just connect it up? If I only had say 4-5 rooms on one story it would be a lot easier.

Lots of good YouTube videos and good DIY HVAC content on garagejournal.com (the latter will have good discussion on brands as well as DIY installs).

For a case where you have a ducted gas furnace, you are probably better off with a traditional A coil evaporator, especially if you want invisible in the living area of the house. Those are not as DIY-friendly (but anything is DIY-able if you're skilled and bold enough, willing to learn, and willing [or eager] to buy some tools :) ).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#549

Post by cmui »

hdhdjdjd wrote: post #548

All good, but preorder page only lists $100 and not a full cost.

Pricing on the main product page. In the future I'll link to pricing from the preorder page as well. Been answering comments all day so no time to change yet!

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#550

Post by dmarlow »

turtlebits wrote: post #516
dmarlow wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for…

The problem with trying to charge a nominal/flat fee is the same for all contractors. Not all houses are alike, and you'll never know what is inside a wall/attic where a customer wants to install it, or what kind of electrical work will be needed. (might have to run a new 240v line). Dirt work may be required for the exterior condenser.

Totally get it. If you're into it for a few k to install, that's one thing. To me, the total costs for this seem a bit high. Who knows, maybe with scale things get cheaper. I'm definitely not their target customer, despite wanting to be.
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