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Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

economist.com

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Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#191

Post by fidgewidge »

anonporridge wrote: post #69
yeuxardents wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does something like that even happen...? All I can consider is the relatively small size of the UK, and how one can drive from one side of the other in the UK in just 15 or so hours...

My understanding after reading this article is that the problem has nothing to do with ambulances or medics. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/20/world/europe/uk-ambulance... First order problem, the hospitals have no beds. This means that ambulances end up waiting for hours and medics twiddling their thumbs at the ER until the staff can finally take the patient. Medics can't just abandon the patient because there lega…

The care home vaccine mandates were far more impactful than Brexit. There were mass resignations when the government forced care home workers (and only them) to take the COVID shots.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#192

Post by fidgewidge »

LaLaLand122 wrote: post #114
nradov wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you saying exactly? How much should spending have increased to account for inflation, population size, and population age distribution? Please give a specific number. Would that be a good use of limited resources?

Not exactly what you ask for, but "the NHS budget has traditionally risen by an average of 4% above inflation each year." ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64190440 )

That's the rate which causes people to argue it's being "defunded".

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#193

Post by fidgewidge »

growse wrote: post #152
0xy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NHS spending has increased by over 6.5% yearly since 2010, with even more massive increases planned for 2024-25. Want a comparison? France's healthcare spending increased 0.3% yearly in the same timeframe. The UK is outpacing France's spending increases by 2,066%. The spending argument is made from political propaganda, not from fact.

You can increase more than others and still be funded less than them. The EU on average still spends dramatically more per capita on health. The spending argument is nuanced and complex. Declaring that it's "not from fact" just reveals your partisan leanings. https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infogr...

No it doesn't. When private healthcare is included the UK spends about the same.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#194

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

nradov wrote: post #174
LaLaLand122 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly what you ask for, but "the NHS budget has traditionally risen by an average of 4% above inflation each year." ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64190440 )

Obviously NHS funding can't continue growing faster than inflation forever. That is unsustainable. At some point the NHS would consume the entire government budget.

And also, the population distribution can't continue skewing older indefinitely, that's unsustainable. At some point geriatrics would make up the entire population.

And yet, both of these trends can continue for quite some time, and one trend can outweigh the other for quite some time.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#195

Post by stuaxo »

morrbo wrote: post #171
londons_explore wrote: post #35

In my district in the UK, there were occasions when average wait times for an ambulance for a Category 1 incident (eg. person not breathing) reached 48 hours last month. The target is 90% of patients reached in 15 minutes. Yet the reality is the average wait was 48 hours. I can't see any way that kind of thing isn't contributing to a shorter life expectancy.

Sorry, but this is just wrong. There is absolutely no way that an average wait time - usually 7 minutes - for a cat 1 call will be 48 hours. Unless someone made a heinous mistake and somehow forgot a call one time, it never "on occasion" goes to 48 hours. As soon as it goes over a relatively small number (30 mins odd) they start bringing in other districts to help. Are you really telling me that we just decided to le…

Lots of cuts to services over a decade before COVID.

Then COVID came and routine treatment is paused, and now yes - we are in a situation where people aren't getting ambulances and at the same time ambulances are piling up outside hospitals as there is no space to take patients.

TLDR - yes, outlet government has been running down the health service to the point people are dying.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#196

Post by stuaxo »

nradov wrote: post #75
markdown wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concerted efforts by the Tories over decades to defund public health so that they can raise a generation of people who sincerely believe that it's best for the country for the government to get out of Healthcare and leave that to the more efficient private sector. It's a very slow process that requires first the defunding, then some brainwashing via television. The American model.

The UK NHS budget has been steadily increasing. You can't plausibly claim that the Tories have defunded public health over decades. Some might claim that the funding should have increased at a faster rate, but there are limits to what any society can spend on healthcare. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...

At the same time getting rid of the nurses bursary that helped new nurses get trained.

Salaries not increasing with inflation.

Staff finding it harder to stay in the UK after Brexit.

Closure of many hospitals, a gradual move (including the previous gov) to many more privatised services.

All these things have increased costs without improving the service.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#197

Post by captaincaveman »

kypro wrote: post #178
kochikame wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give some examples of the misunderstandings you see between rich and poor in the UK?

The mains two would be that in general the upper-middle class and wealthy don't understand the financial incentives of the poor. And the poor tend to believe everyone with a job earning more than £35,000 is "rich" and needs to be aggressively taxed. For example, when I tell people that most of my family choose to have children in their early twenties as a means to move out of their parents homes those who are wealthi…

Largely agree with what you're saying, not so much on retirees, yes they should be means tested, but I have seen old people getting robbed of their homes to pay for some shitty nursing home.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#198

Post by captaincaveman »

Nextgrid wrote: post #164
tailspin2019 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Brit I totally agree. I don’t quite understand the sequence of events that brought us here, but I am convinced that we need to kick the Conservatives out at the next election at the very least.

I don't think the conservatives are the problem per-se, rather it's a flawed political system that rewards the biggest bullshitter, imposes no penalties for lies, misconduct and conflicts of interest, and a term limit that's way too long so the feedback loop is extremely long. I hate the Conversatives as well and would like to see them booted out of principle but I'm not under the illusion that the other option is go…

If we kick the Conservatives, hmmm I wonder who will be next up to bat, ohh for about a decade until we are sick of their incompetence.. goto 10.

They just literally wait their turn, terrible incompetence and no accountability.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#199

Post by captaincaveman »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #155
krysp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well known anecdotally perhaps, but this is the first time I've seen a major publication link the two issues (possibly I don't read enough of the news). Hopefully we see more like this.

Financial Times called it out recently too, in surprisingly clear terms: https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1606223922474627073 > Britain’s grim winter of strikes, falling incomes and a worsening NHS crisis is not some unfortunate series of events > It’s the inevitable result of a decade of Tory austerity that steadily weakened the state’s capacity to respond to shocks

Assuming this is true, wasn't it the bailing out of the banks a major factor in the need for austerity?

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#200

Post by balaji1 »

MrJohz wrote: post #130
balaji1 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the caller know an ambulance is coming? How do we know the call didn't end up in a black hole? We see where the driver is on Doordash. Similarly there should be a text message confirmation with a tracking link to the ambulance on the way and the destination hospital.

This is a fine technical solution to a different problem. The issue is not that people don't trust the ambulances, or want to keep track of them to feel more in control. The issue is that there aren't enough ambulances in the first place, not enough beds to put people in when they arrive at hospitals, nor enough people to treat them when they've got a bed. I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea in general, but add…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35131300

An idea for ambulances shortages ^

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