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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#441

Post by danans »

briHass wrote: post #287

Would've loved to see a different approach to the typical refrigerant-split units. I'm EPA certified, and do my own heat pump work, but something that could really blow up the heat pump space would be a closed-loop refrigerant system that uses water lines to the indoor coil/air handler. This would make the system a true DIY self-install, since you'd never be messing with refrigerant loops. The indoor coil/AH could be…

> something that could really blow up the heat pump space would be a closed-loop refrigerant system that uses water lines to the indoor coil/air handler.

Add in hot water heating and storage, and that's basically what Harvest Thermal is doing:

https://www.harvest-thermal.com/product

They even use an off-the-shelf heat pump compressor (SanCO2) that as the name implies, uses CO2 as a refrigerant. It's a pricey compressor though.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#442

Post by Brystephor »

I have family that works as HVAC techs for both residential and commercial. I also used to work at the shop but did other stuff primarily.

Here's my question though: it states as a direct to consumer sales route. However the pricing includes installation. I don't know of any contractors that would be willing to do a customer supplied part installation for something like a heat pump. I also know that if they did do it, they would provide no warranties around it. So then from the consumers point of view, you've paid $10k to have something installed and if it breaks, you're out of luck and it's time to pay up again.

I'm interested in hearing more about this product and seeing how it works. Would love to chat more about it.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#443

Post by cmui »

aloukissas wrote: post #415

This is great to see. I have a question around the "a delightfully uniform temperature in each room". I live in a 3-story townhome, which has largely non-uniform temperature across floors (since warm air travels up). So, cold lower floors in the winter and hot upper floors in the summer. AFAICT, this is pretty common with central duct systems and the usual fix is to switch to split-unit systems. How does your product…

Good question. The uniform temp is really within a room, what you're describing is the not uncommon experience of having unbalanced duct work. A few options for you (1) DIY or pro duct balancing. You change the position of dampers and vents, might have to modify duct work (2) actuated zone dampers, these live in the duct work and install is expensive (3) a smart vent that you can DIY, battery life is surprisingly good https://flair.co/ (4) mini-split system, every major room gets a wall unit connected to an outdoor unit (condenser), and you can control the temperature of each room the mini-split is in. Electric Air offers wall units for this if you're not able to make a ducted install work. (5) hybrid setup, you use a centrally ducted furnace for most of the house, heat pump or otherwise, and use a mini-split in the upstairs rooms that are not reaching the desired temperature.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#444

Post by rappjo »

I have many of the issues you've hit upon - I currently have an older heating and no cooling, and I wanted to upgrade to a newer system. I signed a contract with a vendor that had previously worked in our HOA, but they reneged and cancelled our contract, so now we've been left in the lurch with the existing system we had without a good way to proceed. Would love to have a new system that plays well with my smart home, is efficient, and cost effective (both in terms of installation and ongoing operational cost).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#445

Post by soheil »

robertlagrant wrote: post #426
soheil wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't understand. Making it non-cloud-capable incurs a cost. And there is no they, the commenter is a single individual.

"As someone about to be in the market for something like this, propriety lockout is a complete deal breaker for me." - StrangeATractor "Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone?" - daredoes "Most of your competition has no sensitivity, and almost no openness, ab…

Yes this is HN what do you expect, of course everyone and their grandma here is gonna want a fully unlocked, open source and free as in freedom fries product.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#446

Post by adventured »

yurishimo wrote: post #433
adventured wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out A single digit percentage of homes globally are using heat pumps, most of the world does not have it figured out. That's specifically why Electric Air exists, they're chasing what is going to be a gigantic market (if it were already such a figured out market they couldn't get funding without a revolutionary 10x approach, YC would have little interest).

Europe as a whole has been utilizing heat pumps for residential heavily over the past decade. With global temperatures rising, heat pump installs in OECD countries are skyrocketing as the climate becomes uncomfortable for larger and larger groups of people. In the Netherlands, I can purchase a minisplit with installation for under €4k. It could get cheaper if I wanted something less powerful. While your point about "…

> it's not helpful when discussing the merits of this product

Of course it is. How would global market size, present and future, not be helpful as a discussion topic? The parent I replied to was referencing that very issue, directly or indirectly. It indicates heat pumps are still a relatively small market, and the OP company is betting it's going to get a lot larger, meaning there is a landgrab going on right now and they're aiming for capturing a segment of that future market.

You contradict your claim that it's not a helpful discussion point in pointing out how usage is skyrocketing (ie the market is getting bigger fast) and having to reference the larger established use in some parts of Europe to try to make your point. You proved it is a pertinent discussion point in trying to claim that it's not.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#447

Post by robertlagrant »

soheil wrote: post #445
robertlagrant wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As someone about to be in the market for something like this, propriety lockout is a complete deal breaker for me." - StrangeATractor "Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone?" - daredoes "Most of your competition has no sensitivity, and almost no openness, ab…

Yes this is HN what do you expect, of course everyone and their grandma here is gonna want a fully unlocked, open source and free as in freedom fries product.

I expect to be able to refer to those people as "they".

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#448

Post by Max-q »

In Norway most homes have one or more heat pumps. We are living in a cold climate and the pumps are being used like 9-10 months a year.

The most common brands are Japanese: Toshiba, Mitsubishi and Panasonic.

I will not agree that the user experience is bad at all. They are very good products. Stand alone they work well and with integration they work together with the power company to optimize the energy consumption vs energy price during the day.

Be careful to just think the existing products are bad because you want them to be. It’s an existing, competitive, multi billion market with very good products.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#449

Post by cmui »

briHass wrote: post #287

Would've loved to see a different approach to the typical refrigerant-split units. I'm EPA certified, and do my own heat pump work, but something that could really blow up the heat pump space would be a closed-loop refrigerant system that uses water lines to the indoor coil/air handler. This would make the system a true DIY self-install, since you'd never be messing with refrigerant loops. The indoor coil/AH could be…

It's a different but valid approach. You still need a pump station and someone comfortable with hydronic loop install/fittings. Some areas also ban PEX. Northeast is definitely the place to do this, as there is way more hydronic knowledge than other parts of the US. System efficiency takes a hit because the secondary water loop adds more lift to the heat pump.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#450

Post by hedora »

elil17 wrote: post #171
cosmosisjones wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what about places like Duluth, MN where it can be -20F ambient, then -40F to -50F with a windchill for several weeks of the year?

Windchill doesn't effect, and you can handle small dips below -15 F (like for a couple hours at night) because the house has some thermal mass. However, Duluth, MN is right at the edge of being too cold for this heat pump (99th percentile cold temperature in the coldest month is -15.16 F). If I was in Duluth and was considering a heat pump, I'd want to make sure I had an electric furnace or some space heaters as a ba…

Even in coastal California, most ducted heat pumps have a built in electric or gas furnace.

I imagine anything sold in areas where it actually gets cold will as well.

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