Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#421

Post by yencabulator » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

> The system operates at all temperatures. Thanks to vapor injection technology the condenser is rated to -15F, and the backup heating strips can operate at all outdoor temperatures.

I call bullshit. Demonstrate a unit at the south pole if you disagree.

The heating strip can operate at all outdoor temperatures perhaps -- it's just a heating strip! -- but that doesn't necessarily make the rest of the system work. Your -15F figure is warmer than what existing products claim, so you're underperforming competition there, yet trying to boast about being superior.

Similarly, the cooling part can only work when you still can dump heat outside.

Established manufacturers state ranges like -22..86F/-25..30C for heating and -22F..122F/-30..50C for cooling. You trying to say "all" is just a lie.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#422

Post by deedubaya » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:41 PM UTC

I'm in the market for a heat pump in my home to replace electric forced air which is in a cold climate. It seems like this heat pump would work great for me, and being able to see pricing up front and self-order sounds awesome!

I'm gonna be a no on purchasing tho. I don't want a smart thermostat that is not system agnostic. High risk of it bricking the system or not being upgradable, minimal reward when compared to all the other smart thermostat options.

A heat pump manufacture that's trying to be a tech company? Nah.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#423

Post by yencabulator » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #169

sokoloff wrote: post #59

I tried like hell to install an air-to-water heat pump instead of a replacement gas boiler and it didn't make anything close to economic sense to do so. What do I want from a heat-pump: I want it to work with a contact-closure (TT/XX) input to call for heat/cooling. Sure, if you have a fancy thermostat that works better, I'm going to read the brochure, but I'm not buying it if I find out it won't work with just a dry…

Nobody will build a heat-pump system with an on/off control system like that because the performance will be awful. Certainly not an air-to-water system.

My Carrier wall unit has a button for manual operation:

> MANUAL CONTROL is intended for testing purposes and emergency operation only.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#424

Post by snuxoll » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #138

cmui wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something we'd definitely consider. Is the desire to have thermostat control via any third party? edit - The current plan has been Matter/thread Homekit + Google Home integration. We can expose at least temperature control via this to everyone.

(not OP, but I also use HA) The important bit is to have an open API that can be connected to from the local network (or via Matter + Thread, etc), and via a cloud. Then anyone can develop a client. This also has benefits in UX: the latency to update is much lower than cloud based polling, since that's almost always rate limited. The closer anything is to the bottom of the chart here, the better. When buying somethin…

Agreed, this isn't a $100 thermostat that I can just pull off the wall and replace - we're talking an expensive investment with a 10+ year lifespan. That said, even for my thermostat not being bound to the cloud was an important reason I went with Emerson/Sensi (the only value-add I lose if their cloud goes down is usage reporting, everything else I can do with the native Homekit support).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#425

Post by nullbyte808 » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:45 PM UTC

cmui wrote: post #45

z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

I agree with this. I would rather have it automated without cloud functionality. I think people on HN just like hacking lol. But when it comes to appliances and cars I would rather not mess with their code and break them.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#426

Post by robertlagrant » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:45 PM UTC

soheil wrote: post #413

robertlagrant wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Creating a non-cloud capable system is dumb No, you haven't understood. It will be cloud-capable. They're asking that it's not cloud-only.

No, you don't understand. Making it non-cloud-capable incurs a cost. And there is no they, the commenter is a single individual.

"As someone about to be in the market for something like this, propriety lockout is a complete deal breaker for me." - StrangeATractor

"Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone?" - daredoes

"Most of your competition has no sensitivity, and almost no openness, about these aspects. I think this could become a really important part of your go-to market, but also a differentiator vs other products." - simonebrunozzi

"I would like to be able to add it to HomeKit without it ever phoning home once. Matter + Thread help make that a possibility." - X-Istence

They.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#427

Post by hd95489 » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:47 PM UTC

cmui wrote: post #325

hd95489 wrote: post #321

Your install costs are super low. Is there some sort of innovation that would drastically reduce install costs? We just got quoted for a conventional heat pump install in Seattle 2/3 of the cost is installation. The unit costs like 6-8k but to get an installer to install its 18-22k. That’s with 5 quotes so I don’t think it’s abnormal. How do you plan to keep install costs so low at 6k

How much ductwork are you having upgraded, also any electrical panel upgrades? There can be extra scope that drives up install cost.

They don’t itemize that out but the existing electrical line has to be retrofitted to current code and some duct work needs modified to fit a new unit. Nothing crazy though, going from one heat pump to a new one. A drop in replacement was 4k unit and 8k costs so 6k listed here seems super low

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#428

Post by yencabulator » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #141

mdasen wrote: post #111

I guess I'm wondering what this offers over calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. The system seems expensive at $14,000 for a 48k BTU 18 SEER system. It looks like I can get that for $4,000. Is the sleek software and design of your units worth the extra $10,000, especially when I'm not really going to see my air handler frequently? I do like that it monitors CO2 and offers humidification…

I mean, they estimate $10k for installation, so you are calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. It's not clear to me from the website if the idea is that they are actually integrating installation in-house or if they will contract out the work, in which case it's likely the exact same installers as if you ordered a system from somewhere like Home Depot.

Well, at least the ones that agree to work with it. For example, the most reputable HVAC company I can find locally has picked their favorite 1-2 brands and largely only installs those, so they know what they're bound to be repairing later.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#429

Post by criddell » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #254

criddell wrote: post #146

My HVAC is 14 years old so we’re actually planning on replacing it sometime in the next 24 months. I’ve talked to a couple of HVAC companies already because I want more cooling power. When it’s above 100F (which it is for 3+ months of the year) my current system struggles to hold 80F. If we use the oven on a hot day, we may not get the temperature back down for days. Our winters are relatively mild (we don’t get much…

You don't want an over-sized system. They short cycle. An over-sized system can quickly cool to the thermostat setting, but leave the latent heat in the water vapor in the air. So you experience the "feels like" temperature...it's not the heat, as they say. A properly sized system runs long enough to condense water vapor and with it remove the latent heat from the air.

The short cycle argument only really applies to older and low end systems that are not variable speed.

A variable speed system integrated with a humidifier should be able to slowly bring the temperature down, making sure that the cooling does not get ahead of the dehumidifying.

I want an “oversized” system that can do > 20F temperature drops. I know they exist because a lot of commercial spaces have them.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#430

Post by jakedata » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

tgtweak wrote: post #404

jakedata wrote: post #370

You should give some thought to offering an AC-DC power supply. Being able to dedicate several solar panels directly to heating or cooling might get people out of a regulatory bind with crazy interconnect fees and local regulations. The trick would be to supply supplemental DC solar power in a manner that would not be considered grid-tied. That would eliminate a whole level of installation costs, permitting fees and…

Most ultra high efficiency heat pumps are already using DC inverter technology which allows the compressor, fans and pumps to run on fully variable speed. If Electric Air is planning on using DC components for their heat pumps, they could make it DC powered as well. The issue is that it would increase cost substantially for people who don't necessarily need it since a 5KW class DC controller (to run the aforementione…

I wouldn't try to over complicate things. A 5KW DC solar controller does not need to be included in every product. The system could allow for DC power input in a manner controlled by software that could offset power delivery from the AC stage.

Individual panel optimizers can already tune output voltage and current, it is just a matter of telling them what you want. If you are really clever you can set operational parameters to cap power consumption based on available solar power, but that's all for later.