Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

dol.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 190 posts

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#91

Post by Tangurena2 »

nostromo wrote: post #21

There are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. Both major parties support this system. Some Republican interests enjoy the access to dirt-cheap labor. Some Democratic interests want immigrants to be able to find jobs despite it being illegal to employ them. So we end up with a system where employers have no easy way to verify that an employee is who they say they are and has a…

Back in 2005/2006, there were a number of raids focusing on meat packing plants in the midwest. The investigation started when a routine check of one Immigration employee turned out that she was working simultaneously (well, her name & SSN were) at more than 50 places (and the IRS wanted about $200k in unpaid income taxes). Much of identity theft is focused on the Hispanic names & SSN because those are the ones that companies hiring illegal immigrants need in order to get past the electronic verification systems.

If there were actual jail time for complicit managers, there would be no market for illegal immigrants.

0 - https://cis.org/Report/2006-Swift-Raids

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_raids

The Denver Post used to have the articles online, but they've since been scrubbed.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#92

Post by pphysch »

Ancapistani wrote: post #84
FireBeyond wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago in the South, coordinated ICE raids of a bunch of chicken "factories" owned by Tyson netted 800-900 arrests of undocumented employees. Many of them testified that Tyson encouraged and coached them, even provided written instructions on how to deal with various employment/taxation things as someone undocumented. Asked about this at a press conference, and whether there were "any plans to issue fines, o…

I live in the area where Tyson has most of its poultry operations, and I know a few people who work for them fairly well - including a couple who are working there under false identities due to immigration status. Tyson knows. They couldn't _not_ know. They seem to maintain an acceptable level of "plausible deniability" at least, and I've not seen any evidence that they're explicitly allowing it to happen, or even th…

Of course Tyson knows. Cheaper labor directly translates to increased profits. If Tyson and other megacorporations don't encourage this practice, they are leaving money on the table and violating their fiduciary duty.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#93

Post by throw93 »

roenxi wrote: post #74
throw93 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Presumably the children in question lied about their age when they signed up. That’s not true though. The company knew exactly what they were doing and still they went ahead and doubled down on it. Excerpt from article: “Our investigation found Packers Sanitation Services’ systems flagged some young workers as minors, but the company ignored the flags. When the Wage and Hour Division arrived with warrants, the adul…

Probably. They did just lose a big court case. But if I ask "how old are you?" in an interview and reject anyone who says "17", then all the interviewees are going to say "18". Kids are pretty dumb but they can figure this stuff out. I'd be happy to claim 10 years of Kubernetes experience if I thought it would give me an advantage in the job market, no question. The children in question are already violating local la…

The age of the kids was in their system. So the children did not lie about their age. It’s weird to defend the company that knowingly illegally employs kids in hazardous job and instead doubt the govt agency that brings this problem to light.

> The children in question are already violating local labour laws;

No they aren’t. Their age was in company’s system and company ignored it. Also they are “children”. You expect a 13 year old on ideal behavior while grown adults at the company were knowingly breaking the law?

> I'd be happy to claim 10 years of Kubernetes experience if I thought it would give me an advantage in the job market, no question

1. Software development is not a hazardous job, 2. You’re an adult.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#94

Post by kneebonian »

mattanimation wrote: post #32

this is why food is cheap people. I used to drive corn and pea combines in high school, and in the farming community it's not uncommon to have kids driving tractors as well (granted this is usually a family run farm). It's likely that the people working in the factories there knew the kids or families and made an exception to allow them to start early (still technically illegal I know). it's not child slave labor, it…

I mean I'll just throw in there that where my wife grew up they have a week off of school for "spud harvest" where the farmers scoop up all the kids in the surrounding area and pay them to pick, sort and drive potatoes. It's a good experience for a lot of people around here and helped my wife net about $3k in high school each year.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#95

Post by krapp »

klooney wrote: post #85
FireBeyond wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago in the South, coordinated ICE raids of a bunch of chicken "factories" owned by Tyson netted 800-900 arrests of undocumented employees. Many of them testified that Tyson encouraged and coached them, even provided written instructions on how to deal with various employment/taxation things as someone undocumented. Asked about this at a press conference, and whether there were "any plans to issue fines, o…

The whole conversation about rural meat packing plants always drives me crazy. They moved them to rural locations, where by definition very few people live, and then suddenly a hundreds of dudes from rural Mexico showed up to work there. So naturally we talk about Americans being lazy and racist when they complain.

They aren't lazy, but let's not pretend the situation you describe doesn't breed racism.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#96

Post by giraffe_lady »

klooney wrote: post #85
FireBeyond wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago in the South, coordinated ICE raids of a bunch of chicken "factories" owned by Tyson netted 800-900 arrests of undocumented employees. Many of them testified that Tyson encouraged and coached them, even provided written instructions on how to deal with various employment/taxation things as someone undocumented. Asked about this at a press conference, and whether there were "any plans to issue fines, o…

The whole conversation about rural meat packing plants always drives me crazy. They moved them to rural locations, where by definition very few people live, and then suddenly a hundreds of dudes from rural Mexico showed up to work there. So naturally we talk about Americans being lazy and racist when they complain.

If your entire problem with that cycle is the mexicans who end up working those jobs it's not ridiculous to consider that racism plays a significant role lol.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#97

Post by code_duck »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #71
nightpool wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is such an easy problem to solve" How? If someone uses a fully faked/stolen identity, with a valid SSN / passport # / etc (which every single company is required to check), how do you propose we catch them?

RealID was supposed to curtail this. They certainly made it hard enough for real citizens to get ID.

Which had the not-surprising side effect of making it difficult for people with less resources to vote.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#98

Post by Ancapistani »

throw93 wrote: post #52
nostromo wrote: post #21

There are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. Both major parties support this system. Some Republican interests enjoy the access to dirt-cheap labor. Some Democratic interests want immigrants to be able to find jobs despite it being illegal to employ them. So we end up with a system where employers have no easy way to verify that an employee is who they say they are and has a…

> There are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. How is this related to the story? The story is about companies using children as workers in hazardous job. It’s illegal regardless of their documentation status. Iowa has proposed bill to to legalize exactly this. This is happening because companies don’t want to pay fair wage.

> How is this related to the story? The story is about companies using children as workers in hazardous job. It’s illegal regardless of their documentation status.

I don't know about this particular case, but I don't know of any large business that's purposefully hiring children, or people not legally able to work in the US. They're hiring immigrants who are providing false documents.

If you're already using false documents and lying about your nationality, lying about your age isn't exactly a huge step. Why _not_ start working as soon as you can reasonably "pass" for the required age?

> Iowa has proposed bill to to legalize exactly this.

That seems like a different problem entirely.

Establishing a culture where counterfeit or stolen identities are commonplace makes it difficult or impossible to ensure the other labor rules are followed even if the company wants to do so. If the company doesn't want to do so, then it's even more difficult to prove intent.

"I had no idea that guy was 16. He said he was 19. Here's the driver's license have gave us! Here's his I-9! He said he was 19, how could we have known?"

The above could have been said by a company who was honestly unaware of the deception, by one that doesn't care, or by one that is actively marketing to and even "importing" underage immigrant workers.

> This is happening because companies don’t want to pay fair wage.

This seems like a third issue still.

In isolation, paying more would drive increased competition for the job; it would give people _more_ incentive to apply under false pretenses, not less.

It's also not clear to me that there is a native workforce in these areas for these jobs, at any rate of pay. Those jobs are difficult to fill because they're seen as low status, not because they don't pay enough. Even today, Tyson provides some of the best-paying jobs in the area where I live. I don't see how increasing that gap even further would change anything.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#99

Post by Tangurena2 »

throw93 wrote: post #22

Meanwhile Iowa proposes bill to do exactly this. https://www.weareiowa.com/amp/article/money/business/sf-167-...

Arkansas as well.

> Teens under age 16 no longer need a work permit through the Arkansas Department of Labor and Licensing before they can start a job.

> Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed HB1410, dubbed the "Youth Hiring Act of 2023," into law last week.

https://www.axios.com/local/nw-arkansas/2023/03/13/arkansas-...

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#100

Post by kaitrain87 »

aaomidi wrote: post #53
tarotuser wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think attributing any sort of emotion to them is out of place. I'd argue that there's complete antipathy at the politician and elite level. And that turns "illegal child labor" into a cost of doing business. And from the looks of it, a quite lucrative form of doing business. I think you're misjudging the emotions (I'd argue they have none). I don't think you're insane.

You're not wrong. I think I use the word `hate` because the status quo is to squeeze the average person out more and more. So since they "don't care", that lack of care ends up being the same as if they hated us.

It starts to invoke a bit of concept creep (e.g. how more people use trauma to describe an everyday bad experience) to describe it as hate.

I'm guessing the commenter (or the royal you) wouldn't be comfortable being labeled as someone who hates Chinese laborers who build Iphones, or the laborers in India who scrap toxic ships left to die, just because you own an Iphone, or bought something that was shipped from overseas and aren't taking much action.

I would also call out that it's a bit of a concept creep to call you insane by that commenter.

Post reply on HN