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Infinite Games

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Re: Infinite Games

#11

Post by NKosmatos »

weego wrote: post #7
bluefirebrand wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money can't buy happiness but it's really good at fixing problems. If your unhappiness is caused by your car being broken down, money can buy that. Not having money to fix your basic life problems with is probably one of the biggest sources of unhappiness in the world.

Yeah I think the common trope needs an update. Money doesn't buy happiness, it removes a lot of unhappiness

I would further refine it with this, money buys you free/spare time.

If you have enough money, you can stop ironing your shirts, cleaning the house, doing chores and all the other stuff that drain our “free” time. Generally speaking, a third of our time goes to work, another third to sleep and the remaining third is our life. We need to make the work part interesting, engaging, joyful and something we look forward to so that it doesn’t make us unhappy. We can try and reduce a little bit the sleep part to gain time, but for sure we need to handle more efficiently the last part and maximize it. This is where most of the happiness will come from.

Re: Infinite Games

#12

Post by skitter »

pil0u wrote: post #10
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

Last time I checked, Nobel Prize Daniel Kahneman published a study[0] in 2010 on 450'000 Americans concluding that people's emotional well-being increases with log(income) but stops increasing at around $75k/year. Has this changed this dramatically during the past decade? [0] https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_...

There's a recent paper¹ claiming Kahneman & Deaton's study was flawed and happiness does increase above $75k/year.

¹ https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2208661120

Re: Infinite Games

#13

Post by selestify »

thunderbong wrote: post #3
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

IMHO, it's not happiness that increases but the general life stress that decreases with increasing income. Probably, most people conflate that with happiness?

How does having less stress not make you happier? Or if not “happy,” then what other word is there to describe this axis on which there was positive movement?

Re: Infinite Games

#14

Post by Cthulhu_ »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #4
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

Money can't buy happiness but it's really good at fixing problems. If your unhappiness is caused by your car being broken down, money can buy that. Not having money to fix your basic life problems with is probably one of the biggest sources of unhappiness in the world.

It's more comfortable to cry in a house you own.

Always remember that the phrase "money doesn't buy you happiness" is a means to make the proletariat accept their lot.

Re: Infinite Games

#15

Post by slindsey »

pil0u wrote: post #10
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

Last time I checked, Nobel Prize Daniel Kahneman published a study[0] in 2010 on 450'000 Americans concluding that people's emotional well-being increases with log(income) but stops increasing at around $75k/year. Has this changed this dramatically during the past decade? [0] https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_...

Someone else pointed out the recent paper, but I'll also point out that $75k per year in the US puts you in the 1% of global population for salary. So it's not like $75k is attainable for most people.

https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=...

Re: Infinite Games

#16

Post by dkersten »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #4
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

Money can't buy happiness but it's really good at fixing problems. If your unhappiness is caused by your car being broken down, money can buy that. Not having money to fix your basic life problems with is probably one of the biggest sources of unhappiness in the world.

It’s very good at fixing problems, but I think even beyond that, money can be used in ways that increase happiness. Some things off the top of my head that money could buy that would increase my happiness or decrease my unhappiness due to things like stress:

Beyond simply fixing problems, it also allows you to just not have to think about them at all, which removes stress. Eg if you have enough money, then bills just aren’t things that ever need to take up time or space in your mind.

Being able to choose where to live based solely on what would make me happy or being close to the people I care about, without having to make suboptimal decisions based on cost.

Not having to work would free up a lot of time to spend with loved ones, on hobbies or activities that bring meaning and joy to my life, or on travelling and seeing wonderful things or places and meeting new people. Even if I want to work, I could at least choose what I want to work on based on what gives me joy and meaning rather than based on financial need.

Money allows you to do these things for others: reduce their stresses and financial worries. Doing things for others is usually rewarding.

So beyond removing unhappiness caused by basic life problems, I think that money really can meaningfully improve your level of happiness. Yes, you’d eventually hit a point where more money doesn’t improve things, but that number is far higher than the $75k figure usually quoted because $75k isn’t even close enough to quit my job, live closer to my friends, Tavel the world and work on my hobbies and personal projects.

Re: Infinite Games

#17

Post by kqr »

pil0u wrote: post #10
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

Last time I checked, Nobel Prize Daniel Kahneman published a study[0] in 2010 on 450'000 Americans concluding that people's emotional well-being increases with log(income) but stops increasing at around $75k/year. Has this changed this dramatically during the past decade? [0] https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_...

Huh, this is really interesting! I knew the normative properties of log wealth, but the connection between well-being and log income surprises me.

What's the connection between wealth and income? Linear or something else?

Re: Infinite Games

#18

Post by CM30 »

There are some really good points here, especially for those trying to chase fame and fortune as a creator or artist. Like this:

> You return from the peak and think, “Damn. I need that rush again. I need to climb another mountain.” But here’s the thing about that next mountain: it has to be greater than the previous one.

This is basically what it's like being a popular YouTuber or Twitch streamer. You reach 1k subs, you want 10k. You reach 10k, you want 100k. Reach 100k, want a million. Etc.

You become obsessed with numbers, driven by the initial feeling of joy as you reach each one. You become more and more obsessed with fame and fortune, and likely end up feeling just as hollow as you did at the start.

All while risking serious burnout, and driving away the people around you.

Becoming rich will certainly make things easier and help happinness wise, but if you're too obsessed with achievements and fortune, you probably won't get to enjoy it.

Re: Infinite Games

#19

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

selestify wrote: post #13
thunderbong wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, it's not happiness that increases but the general life stress that decreases with increasing income. Probably, most people conflate that with happiness?

How does having less stress not make you happier? Or if not “happy,” then what other word is there to describe this axis on which there was positive movement?

Comfort.

In the context we're using the word, "satisfaction" might be a good replacement for "happiness". It isn't about pleasure, or even feeling good necessarily, but contentment with your place in the world.

Re: Infinite Games

#20

Post by cableshaft »

pil0u wrote: post #10
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

Last time I checked, Nobel Prize Daniel Kahneman published a study[0] in 2010 on 450'000 Americans concluding that people's emotional well-being increases with log(income) but stops increasing at around $75k/year. Has this changed this dramatically during the past decade? [0] https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_...

Someone else mentioned the potential flaws with the study, but even assuming the study is correct, people keep sharing the $75k number (in 2010) without adjusting it for inflation.

Adjusting it for inflation[1], $75k in 2010 would be $103k today.

[1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

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