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Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

economist.com

141–150 of 204 posts

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#141
post #3

Strange that the article doesn't mention Brexit. Many nurses (and doctors) in the UK used to be from EU countries.

I’m not sure that’s the case. My partner works in the NHS and the vast majority of her colleagues are European or Commonwealth immigrants: Romanians, Polish, Nigerians, and Indians in the main.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#142
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK NHS budget has been steadily increasing. You can't plausibly claim that the Tories have defunded public health over decades. Some might claim that the funding should have increased at a faster rate, but there are limits to what any society can spend on healthcare. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...

Just cause the dollar amount is increasing doesn't mean it isn't being defunded. You have to account for inflation, population size, and population age distribution.

"...and population age distribution."

Ay, there's the rub.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#143
post #78

In my district in the UK, there were occasions when average wait times for an ambulance for a Category 1 incident (eg. person not breathing) reached 48 hours last month. The target is 90% of patients reached in 15 minutes. Yet the reality is the average wait was 48 hours. I can't see any way that kind of thing isn't contributing to a shorter life expectancy.

I don’t get why people are even bothering to call at this point, surely you’re better off calling a taxi or driving the person yourself and then just carrying them into the ER and shouting for help. They’re in the building that way and they can’t just ignore a collapsed person in the middle of a hallway

There isn’t much point in going to A&E - there are no doctors. I amputated my fingertip (halfway up the final joint, with a blunt instrument - crushed the thing off) a week ago and was told to go home and use glue and tape to close the wound, and to throw away the tip. I’ve been dunking it in meths to sterilise and dry it.

They literally did nothing. Contrast to Latvia where I bisected my thumb with an axe and they put it back together about 20 minutes later and charged me €9.

I also have a 8 week old child - zero checkups, no vaccination appointments available, no doctors appointments available. No follow ups for my wife after birth. Oh, and we had to do it all at home, as there is no space in hospital for childbirth - the beds are all full of people who should be in old people’s homes, but there are no spaces in homes for them to move to.

I am ridiculously glad to be back in Portugal as of today, and tomorrow I will take her to the village clinic, where she will finally have a medical inspection.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#144
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical students pay the exact same way as all other university students. They pay via student finance loans for the first four years. The NHS pays for the fifth and final year, as Student Fianance (England) will not cover the cost. Medical students have the same student loans of £60k+ as any other student doing a four year degree

And the average US doctor has student loans of around £207,340, so the point stands. UK doctors do pay towards their education, but it’s heavily subsidised.

Compared to the student costs to other UK students. It is the exact same - a preferential subsidization would see medical students get a cheaper education within the UK.

It is hardly genuine comparing to the US system, which is the most expensive in the world.

What is the comparative cost to other European countries?

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding after reading this article is that the problem has nothing to do with ambulances or medics. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/20/world/europe/uk-ambulance... First order problem, the hospitals have no beds. This means that ambulances end up waiting for hours and medics twiddling their thumbs at the ER until the staff can finally take the patient. Medics can't just abandon the patient because there lega…

b) is not exclusive to Britain. A very large portion of the US benefits from poorer countries to the south with high birth rates and porous borders. Probably applies to almost all large developed countries.

Nurses in the US earn at least 3x their UK counterparts though.

Same for doctors, dentists, etc. too.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#146
post #9

As a Brit I can't help but notice that on every axis, our country appears to be in decline at the moment. Even before Brexit, things hadn't been going well, as this article shows. It's making me seriously consider moving away. I want to have hope that as a country we can turn around this societal regression, but I fear it's a deeper problem than just the current government. The class system and an unhealthy nostalgia…

Everywhere has problems, I've lived in many countries.

I never moved back to the UK mainly because of the cost of housing though, it feels like such a rip-off - like almost US-level prices, but nowhere near US-level salaries or Scandinavia-level new build quality, etc.

But really everywhere has issues, once you move abroad you'll see how much you take for granted - language, technology, etc.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counter-argument to this would be: A nation with a 10x higher per capita of truly productive scientists and engineers (with a well functioning R&D system that wasn't just publish-or-perish or other friction that reduces efficiency) would perform roughly as well as a nation with 10x the population. Somewhat but not perfectly analogous to how some countries invest more, or more wisely in their military budget, and…

But as other nations 'catch up' and turn out productive scientists and engineers in similar ratios, the disparity in the denominator becomes overwhelming. E.g. China.

This sounds like a win-win. No need to imply it is a zero sum competition.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#148
post #9

As a Brit I can't help but notice that on every axis, our country appears to be in decline at the moment. Even before Brexit, things hadn't been going well, as this article shows. It's making me seriously consider moving away. I want to have hope that as a country we can turn around this societal regression, but I fear it's a deeper problem than just the current government. The class system and an unhealthy nostalgia…

FWIW As a US citizen I feel similarly. The switching cost feels too high to move, as I can't really see myself living somewhere other than the West Coast (family, friends etc) It's a shame humans don't have more empathy and sympathy for each other, and that governments have been so obviously co-opted by the wealthy and powerful for their own benefit. One of the things that does make me feel better is being more invol…

Europe is far worse for everything being designed to serve the wealthy though.

Income tax is 40+% and VAT usually 25% so you lose so much income to the state.

Meanwhile there is often no property or inheritance tax, and capital gains tax much lower than income tax, so wealthy aristocrats and landowners pay a far, far lower amount of tax proportionally.

It's just that the wealthy in the US are mainly industrialists, whereas in Europe they're landowners and aristocrats.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#149
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get why people are even bothering to call at this point, surely you’re better off calling a taxi or driving the person yourself and then just carrying them into the ER and shouting for help. They’re in the building that way and they can’t just ignore a collapsed person in the middle of a hallway

There isn’t much point in going to A&E - there are no doctors. I amputated my fingertip (halfway up the final joint, with a blunt instrument - crushed the thing off) a week ago and was told to go home and use glue and tape to close the wound, and to throw away the tip. I’ve been dunking it in meths to sterilise and dry it. They literally did nothing. Contrast to Latvia where I bisected my thumb with an axe and they p…

Defunding of old people's homes (and lack of staff) seems to be a problem in my here in FInland as well. Elders who aren't in good enough condition to live alone end up just flooding ER rooms. Nurses visiting at home may be cheaper, but it's not a working solution for everyone.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ambulance still shows up to declare someone dead.

Can a paramedic declare someone dead?

Where injuries are, to use a morbid phrase, ‘incompatible with life’, a paramedic can declare them dead, but a doctor needs to issue the certificate with the cause of death.
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