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Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

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Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#171

Post by pyuser583 »

jrussino wrote: post #166
pyuser583 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but what about academic back doors? I was admitted to a college because I was really interested in a major they started offering and wanted to promote. I just got one of my children admitted to a very selective private school because “wanted” to participate in a program they had just begun. Schools always have programs and initiatives they are pushing, and give preference to students who want to use them.

How do you become aware of these programs and initiatives and their level of preference in the eyes of the school? Do you happen to have personal connections with people in the school administration or admissions office and find out by word of mouth? Or are you trying to infer what's important to them from some publicly-available information like the school's website/newsletter/twitter/press releases?

That’s a really great question -

* in the case of my college, I knew what I wanted, and was shopping around for it. The major was a very unusual one - not even a major as much as a program (“great books”).

* in the case of my daughter, I knew the school because I had taught there decades ago.

* there are admissions consultants who keep track of these sorts of things and make it a point to know all the side doors.

At the end of the day, colleges admissions should be about matching students and colleges who fit together. If a student isn’t as competitive, but is still a great fit, they should I get extra points for that.

But this can be come a system those with money abuse. But that abuse takes the form of lying about whether they are a good fit for the college they are going to - which is dumb.

If a student gets into Harvard by saying they really want to pursue the newly introduced degree of “Diversity, Equity, Inclusion” - is Harvard really a good fit?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#172

Post by riku_iki »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #164
whimsicalism wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who has to do this? Like give me the finances you are imagining

I suppose this is the “middle class” family taking home $600K per year and with a couple of million in a brokerage account. Yes, that family is probably not going to get much financial aid. I have no problem with that; speaking as someone who is in the broad vicinity of that category and will be paying for college in due course.

I entered numbers: two adults 150k income, 700k house with 300k mortgage left, 200k retirement, 50k investment. Tuition would be $38k.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#173

Post by sandkoan »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #163
sandkoan wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm criticizing their decision to only offer need-based scholarships when they could just as well provide both—if they really cared about academic strength, then they could put their money where their mouth is, and provide meaningful merit-based scholarships. Princeton, for instance, is capable of letting in every student for free, and still not dipping into their endowment [0]. Why don't they do so? Because it w…

As usual, Malcolm Gladwell looks insightful but it’s all surface gloss. Do some basic reading about the structure of university endowments: it’s not one big pot of money, it’s thousands upon thousands of individual gifts that often have specific purposes (like: a particular professorial chair, or a particular library) that are limitations on use. I don’t even really understand the point about merit scholarships. Sure…

I only brought up the Gladwell post to clarify the scale at which these institutions operate. There is no question that they have the money, and, if they chose, could sustainably provide scholarships to some subset of the particularly meritorious. Nothing stops them from soliciting donations for a new merit fund just as they do for their chairs and libraries.

I'm not saying everyone deserves a merit scholarship—but if the point of university is to nurture the best and brightest, then the best and brightest shouldn't have to pay such exorbitant fees. Afterall, they're the reason the colleges maintain their sterling academic reputations.

If you have a household income of 250k—of which your take home is ~160k—and Columbia subtracts another 90k, that leaves you with 70k to pay for everything else. In expensive locales, that's not nearly enough to pay for the education of two children without mortgaging your house. If said best and brightest are unable to attend due to such circumstances, a merit scholarship seems in order—otherwise, you, as a college, are admitting that money means more to you than education, and that you're willing to take someone who isn't nearly as good (there's a reason you didn't admit them initially) simply because they're capable of paying. Not everyone who is admitted can afford to attend at the price of admission demanded by these colleges. Again, I speak from experience.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#174

Post by slg »

coldtea wrote: post #168
slg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Being an athlete isn’t particularly different than getting a minor or a dual major. Just because there’s sweating involved doesn’t make it not a scholarly pursuit, we should stop being such gatekeepers. From a certain perspective there is little that separates sports from a lot of arts majors. Someone studying acting is very unlikely to turn that into a profession just like a football player. Why does running around…

> Why does running around on a field have less intellectual value than doing make believe on a stage? In a culture that asks this question seriously, "intellectual value" might not be needed in general (except in some specific niches)

This is the typical response when mentioning the value of sport on HN. You just scoff at the notion without providing a single reason why acting is a more intellectual pursuit than football. You're assuming the reasoning is obvious and that is likely a sign that you haven’t done any serious thinking about the question.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#175

Post by coldtea »

slg wrote: post #174
coldtea wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does running around on a field have less intellectual value than doing make believe on a stage? In a culture that asks this question seriously, "intellectual value" might not be needed in general (except in some specific niches)

This is the typical response when mentioning the value of sport on HN. You just scoff at the notion without providing a single reason why acting is a more intellectual pursuit than football. You're assuming the reasoning is obvious and that is likely a sign that you haven’t done any serious thinking about the question.

>You just scoff at the notion without providing a single reason why acting is a more intellectual pursuit than football.

You do understand the definition of "intellectual", as in "intellectual pursuit"?

And how it is meant to specifically exclude physical activity and things like sports (except if you include something like chess as a sport)?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#176

Post by FireBeyond »

slg wrote: post #150
FireBeyond wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NBA sends letters to D1 college basketball players, emphasizing to them the value of their studies, as less than 1% of them will make it to the NBA. I expect that most arts majors have at least 1% doing that thing. They may not be rock stars, but I expect that 1% of music majors are at least playing, be it local orchestras or bands or live or canned music (jingles, etc.).

Seems like your measures of success are rather uneven. There are plenty of jobs related to sports that don't include playing professionally. If playing in a local orchestra counts as success, why not coaching the local high school team?

I was never trying to talk about levels of success. There's nothing wrong with (to use your example) being involved as a teacher, or in sports management, at college.

I meant more the fact that even at least one of the pro sports leagues tries to remind even people who are doing extremely well in the sport, that as well as they've done, that next step as a player is going to be even harder. So to not neglect things in single-minded pursuit of "I'm going to the NBA" (because you're probably not).

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#177

Post by LudwigNagasena »

bee_rider wrote: post #133
coldtea wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A university is not just a place to go to learn anymore. It’s a big club that happens to be a place where you study. Yes. That should stop. > Athletic departments are vital to the university system in American schools and their local economies. That too.

You could learn most things in a library for free. One of the big advantages of a University is being around other ambitious people at the same point in their career. The “big club” aspect is an important part of the value proposition. We should definitely dump athletic departments, though, they are completely unrelated to the mission.

One of the big advantages of a university is that they give you credentials you can show to your employer (including university itself if you want to be a scientist). Everything else is 90% wishful thinking.

That leads to product bundling you describe, which should be vigorously fought with antitrust laws.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#178

Post by slg »

FireBeyond wrote: post #176
slg wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like your measures of success are rather uneven. There are plenty of jobs related to sports that don't include playing professionally. If playing in a local orchestra counts as success, why not coaching the local high school team?

I was never trying to talk about levels of success. There's nothing wrong with (to use your example) being involved as a teacher, or in sports management, at college. I meant more the fact that even at least one of the pro sports leagues tries to remind even people who are doing extremely well in the sport, that as well as they've done, that next step as a player is going to be even harder. So to not neglect things i…

>I meant more the fact that even at least one of the pro sports leagues tries to remind even people who are doing extremely well in the sport, that as well as they've done, that next step as a player is going to be even harder. So to not neglect things in single-minded pursuit of "I'm going to the NBA" (because you're probably not).

Sure, but the next step of going from drama school to a professional actor is also extremely hard. There may not be a central authority like the NBA directly stating that to college kids, but most people won't be able to make that transition either.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#179

Post by slg »

coldtea wrote: post #175
slg wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the typical response when mentioning the value of sport on HN. You just scoff at the notion without providing a single reason why acting is a more intellectual pursuit than football. You're assuming the reasoning is obvious and that is likely a sign that you haven’t done any serious thinking about the question.

> You just scoff at the notion without providing a single reason why acting is a more intellectual pursuit than football. You do understand the definition of "intellectual", as in "intellectual pursuit"? And how it is meant to specifically exclude physical activity and things like sports (except if you include something like chess as a sport)?

You're still sidestepping my original question, but to answer yours here is the definition of "intellectual" from the Cambridge Dictionary[1]:

-relating to your ability to think and understand things, especially complicated ideas

-very educated and interested in studying and other activities that involve careful thinking and mental effort

What do you find intellectual about acting or chess? The same almost assuredly applies to football, but it can be difficult to see if you don't even give sports any consideration in that regard.

You seem to be dismissing the mental aspects of sports because of the physicality involved, but physicality is a huge part of acting and even chess puts huge physical stress on one's body. People have literally died playing chess due to the physical stress. Subjects don't fall into a binary categorization of physical or mental. Sports, like many disciplines of art, requires both to varying degrees.

[1] - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intel...

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#180

Post by panick21_ »

lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

The whole American system of collage sports is just totally strange to Europeans.
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