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Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

bloomberg.com

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Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#161

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

grogenaut wrote: post #93
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix has a docu-series called "Last Chance U" about the junior college athletic system and how it operates. I knew intellectually that college athletes were coddled academically and while it's hard not to root for the individuals depicted in the documentary to succeed it's also hard not to think that there must be dozens of kids at the schools where they come from that were more academically inclined and could hav…

Having played college ball at an high end academic school a few thoughts here. Last Chance U is great and a great insight, I really enjoy the show, and get heart broken for these kids. You can't really get schaudenfraude when they fail like other shows or dramas. But there's a few things you may not have caught, which seems to be the same across most college sports and just exacerbates as you become more competitive/…

An athletic scholarship seems both exciting and controversial ... until you calculate the hours that go into it and realize you could literally do better financially flipping burgers. Still, there is a useful and notable je na sais quoi about athletes, and the way they approach life, that is not fully valued by the academic community-- a drive for practicality, achievement, teamwork. Frankly a lot of the demeaning comments in this board are silly.

I turned down Harvard many years ago for not offering athletics scholarships-- I could not reasonably afford school any other way. And, I was laughed at for years by those in the know of the "need based" assistance framework. One thing that made it unaffordable in my case was they wanted a year of prep school on top of high school which definitely is exclusionary. But, if a Bloomberg contributor can fail to see a pathway equivalent to a scholarship for someone who financially cannot attend any other way, I'd say there is something to the author's grievance.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#162

Post by throw0101c »

lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

> fencing

Tangent: take certain physical education courses at MIT and you can get a 'unofficial' pirate certificate:

> An underground campus custom has become an official and increasingly famous part of MIT culture. Although student pirates have roamed campus informally for decades, in 2011 the Department of Athletics, Physical Education, and Recreation (DAPER) began issuing MIT pirate certificates to students who completed specific requirements. Six students earned the inaugural certificates and, today, 354 MIT students and alumni have received certificates at a spring ritual—Pirate Induction Day.

* https://alum.mit.edu/slice/arrrr-mit-pirates-and-matt-damon-...

> The MIT Pirate Certificate became available in the Fall of 2011. Students who have completed Archery, Fencing, Pistol (Air Pistol or Rifle) and Sailing should send an email to […]

* https://physicaleducationandwellness.mit.edu/about/pirate-ce...

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#163

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

sandkoan wrote: post #125
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally ridiculous; virtually all of the Ivies offer need-blind funding; if you're admitted, then you're going to get whatever amount of scholarship you need to go. You can look at Yale's details here: https://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability ... e.g. virtually all families earning less than $75K per year will get a full-ride plus a $2,000 grant in the first year. Are you seriously criticizin…

No, I'm criticizing their decision to only offer need-based scholarships when they could just as well provide both—if they really cared about academic strength, then they could put their money where their mouth is, and provide meaningful merit-based scholarships. Princeton, for instance, is capable of letting in every student for free, and still not dipping into their endowment [0]. Why don't they do so? Because it w…

As usual, Malcolm Gladwell looks insightful but it’s all surface gloss. Do some basic reading about the structure of university endowments: it’s not one big pot of money, it’s thousands upon thousands of individual gifts that often have specific purposes (like: a particular professorial chair, or a particular library) that are limitations on use.

I don’t even really understand the point about merit scholarships. Surely the purpose of a merit scholarship is to help someone who can’t afford to go to a school but who is academically outstanding? If you’re doing need-blind admissions and financial aid, that’s the empty set, isn’t it? Since everyone who is admitted can afford to go?

As to your last point, please go take a look at that Yale page I attached to the last post and tell me that you think the scholarship amounts look unfair to higher income households.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#164

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

whimsicalism wrote: post #92
riku_iki wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> e.g. virtually all families earning less than $75K per year will get a full-ride plus a $2,000 grant in the first year. and some middle class parents with two kids need to sell house to cover tuition?..

Who has to do this? Like give me the finances you are imagining

I suppose this is the “middle class” family taking home $600K per year and with a couple of million in a brokerage account. Yes, that family is probably not going to get much financial aid. I have no problem with that; speaking as someone who is in the broad vicinity of that category and will be paying for college in due course.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#165

Post by cudgy »

fsckboy wrote: post #143
pyuser583 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did life improve in the post-colonial world? There don’t seem to be too many 1950s era success stories in this regard.

life has generally improved for everybody, everywhere in the world, as it was also the time of the green revolution, antibiotics, etc., and many former colonies revel in their self governance even while their politics seem even more dysfunctional than western politics. But you might be making the point that some former colonies would have been better off remaining as colonies, a hill I am not willing to defend, let a…

More chattel does not necessarily mean a better life. Dictators that look more like you are not necessarily more beneficent.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#166

Post by jrussino »

pyuser583 wrote: post #132
lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

Yes but what about academic back doors? I was admitted to a college because I was really interested in a major they started offering and wanted to promote. I just got one of my children admitted to a very selective private school because “wanted” to participate in a program they had just begun. Schools always have programs and initiatives they are pushing, and give preference to students who want to use them.

How do you become aware of these programs and initiatives and their level of preference in the eyes of the school? Do you happen to have personal connections with people in the school administration or admissions office and find out by word of mouth? Or are you trying to infer what's important to them from some publicly-available information like the school's website/newsletter/twitter/press releases?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#167

Post by flerchin »

oarabbus_ wrote: post #108
flerchin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The schools offer competing services for the consumers. They've all agreed to not compete for certain consumers in the same way. Does that help you? An HOA is not an appropriate metaphor.

I don't see how this clarifies that it's not a appropriate metaphor. There are hundreds of schools or more that _do_ compete for consumers in that way. Similarly, HOAs in some areas may restrict boat parking. Other HOAs however, will allow it. Why is the metaphor not appropriate?

HOAs are local government, not market participants.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#168

Post by coldtea »

slg wrote: post #130
Godel_unicode wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College athletes who are going pro are studying their chosen field just as studiously as any other field (and more than most business/communications majors). Athletes who aren’t going pro, which is most of them, do better than average academically. Being an athlete isn’t particularly different than getting a minor or a dual major. Just because there’s sweating involved doesn’t make it not a scholarly pursuit, we shou…

>Being an athlete isn’t particularly different than getting a minor or a dual major. Just because there’s sweating involved doesn’t make it not a scholarly pursuit, we should stop being such gatekeepers. From a certain perspective there is little that separates sports from a lot of arts majors. Someone studying acting is very unlikely to turn that into a profession just like a football player. Why does running around…

>Why does running around on a field have less intellectual value than doing make believe on a stage?

In a culture that asks this question seriously, "intellectual value" might not be needed in general (except in some specific niches)

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#169

Post by coldtea »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #116
coldtea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, an…

> A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. Welcome to 1910. > It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, and to make it have a strong team. But it has absolutely nothing to do with a school's intended purpose (except the "make money" purpose). It engages people who care about spo…

>Welcome to 1910.

Is that an argument? The "newer is better" kind? Perhaps 1910 had that part figured out better than 2023.

>Well, it turns out that universities are full of educated people and they've run the numbers. The numbers say that athletics are an attraction to universities for students and alumni alike.

I never argued it doesn't make them money or that the bean counters there can't see that.

Just that it's (or oughta be) unrelated with the goals of an academic institution, whether it's lucrative or not.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#170

Post by grogenaut »

unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #161
grogenaut wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having played college ball at an high end academic school a few thoughts here. Last Chance U is great and a great insight, I really enjoy the show, and get heart broken for these kids. You can't really get schaudenfraude when they fail like other shows or dramas. But there's a few things you may not have caught, which seems to be the same across most college sports and just exacerbates as you become more competitive/…

An athletic scholarship seems both exciting and controversial ... until you calculate the hours that go into it and realize you could literally do better financially flipping burgers. Still, there is a useful and notable je na sais quoi about athletes, and the way they approach life, that is not fully valued by the academic community-- a drive for practicality, achievement, teamwork. Frankly a lot of the demeaning co…

I mean flipping burgers doesn't really help as much in the long run. My college teammates and friends that I met through sports ended up being a pretty solid network. So many CFOs, VPs, etc obviously. But one Federal Judge, one Secret Service agent, one FBI Agent. The Secret Service guy actually walked onto the practice field his first day (this is D3 small school) having been a 2 way all state player in high school and said "I'm literally never going to touch the field" because everyone was so much bigger and more athletic than him at even a non-scholarship school. He stuck with it all 4 years though. That kid had grit as they say.

Interesting, what was the prep school? My school required 4 years of math/science in HS which is a thing many US schools don't require but if you're a top student you can go for. One kid I played with only had 2 years of HS. He spent the whole summer on campus from like 3 days after HS graduation to 3 days into football taking stats, physics, chemistry, and college algebra to get him up to snuff. I think that may be similar to the prep you're talking about. He ended up doing fine (average grades) in the B school, and I believe is a arson investigator now.

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