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Map of an Insect’s Brain

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#21

Post by notfed »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #18
notfed wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case the "map" is simply a set of high-res images, not a computer model. I don't think an image can be aware.

Guess I need to find source study. This high level article makes it sound like an actual map, not an image. Based on same type of map that has been made of nematode From article Now, researchers have constructed a detailed map of the neurons and the connections between them in the brain of a larval fruit fly. With 3,016 neurons and 548,000 connections, called synapses

There's no citation, but I am assuming it's this:

"A searchable image resource of Drosophila GAL4-driver expression patterns with single neuron resolution. eLife, 2023; 12 DOI: 10.7554/eLife.80660"

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#22

Post by yyyk »

falcor84 wrote: post #15
yyyk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is it simulated to the level where you could give it some visual stimulus and observe the actions it is trying to take? No way. First, this mapping doesn't tell us how the synapses are regulated - if we could 'run' this the weights would stay fixed forever and that's not how a brain works. Second, there must be some neurons dedicated to chemical management, and they'd go haywire unless you found a way to deal with t…

>Lastly, we don't have the computational ability just yet to simulate even the mapping itself. Could you please explain why not? 548,000 synapses sounds entirely feasible to me.

Neurons and synapses are incredibly complex. Think you're emulating over 3,000 heterogeneous cores with over half a million links while communication must be low-latency-ish. A third of the links seem to join other links and we don't even know what that does. If there's computation there we'll need even more cores.

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#23

Post by dredog »

GordonS wrote: post #3

> The connectome of the larval fly, published Friday in the journal Science, took 12 years to complete. Imaging a single neuron required about a day... > Human brains have an estimated 86 billion neurons and hundreds of trillions of synapses... So, the techniques used for the fly are totally impractical for humans, or presumably any mammal. Anyone know of any developments that may help? Maybe AI could be used to auto…

Yep, this is already happening. I think it’s called ‘automatic segmentation’.

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#24

Post by undersuit »

GordonS wrote: post #3

> The connectome of the larval fly, published Friday in the journal Science, took 12 years to complete. Imaging a single neuron required about a day... > Human brains have an estimated 86 billion neurons and hundreds of trillions of synapses... So, the techniques used for the fly are totally impractical for humans, or presumably any mammal. Anyone know of any developments that may help? Maybe AI could be used to auto…

Do we need to image all 86 billion? A sampling of cells throughout the brain and a simulation of a cell such that we can figure out how 1 fertilized egg can become 86 billion neurons and change. We can throw compute power at that, we don't really have brains to throw at the problem.

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#25

Post by wizofaus »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #6

if you map every single neuron, at what point is it no longer just a 'model' of reality, and is reality. How do we know that the computer model of neurons does not have the same internal awareness as the real neurons?

Is there convincing evidence actual insects have "awareness"?

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#26

Post by object-object »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #6

if you map every single neuron, at what point is it no longer just a 'model' of reality, and is reality. How do we know that the computer model of neurons does not have the same internal awareness as the real neurons?

If you map every single class in UML, at what point is it no longer just a 'model' of the software, and is the software.

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#27

Post by layer8 »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #6

if you map every single neuron, at what point is it no longer just a 'model' of reality, and is reality. How do we know that the computer model of neurons does not have the same internal awareness as the real neurons?

Neurons have a huge internal complexity and diversity, and this connectome doesn’t tell you much about those internals.

Re: Map of an Insect’s Brain

#29

Post by aperrien »

yyyk wrote: post #22
falcor84 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Lastly, we don't have the computational ability just yet to simulate even the mapping itself. Could you please explain why not? 548,000 synapses sounds entirely feasible to me.

Neurons and synapses are incredibly complex. Think you're emulating over 3,000 heterogeneous cores with over half a million links while communication must be low-latency-ish. A third of the links seem to join other links and we don't even know what that does. If there's computation there we'll need even more cores.

I think you may be overestimating the complexity. The better idea is to set up and experiment with different simulation parameters, and see how far they diverge from actual observed behavior.
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