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Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

citoyens.soquij.qc.ca

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Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#241

I have no idea what a UK version of this transcript would look like but I rather enjoyed this one from Canada. The Décision is spelt out with exquisite precision throughout the entire document. King Charles III's Justice is quite clearly very well dispensed in Canada.

tl;dr: https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Ju...> (wiki overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_joke_trial#cite_ref-Hi...>), which summarizes the very different first-instance trial (in England & Wales) of Chambers from this first-instance trial of Epstein (in Canada). In particular, Chambers was accused of threatening to blow up an airport, which is rather different than giving someone a finger. The finger was meant seriously, whereas the "threat" was clearly not meant seriously, and the conviction of Chambers is widely considered a miscarriage of justice that was only belatedly corrected. I am fairly sure that to the extent the Canadian acquittal becomes widely know, it will be considered a correct and just outcome.

The UK has at least three different criminal jurisdictions. The most readily comparable one is that of England & Wales ("E&W"). Most criminal law in modern times flows from legislation in the various parliaments based at Westminster in London ("Westminster" for short), however in Scotland and Northern Ireland there is law that is variously old enough to predate Westminster's legislative control; there is also old law in England and Wales together and separately; and finally there is new law legislated by the devolved assemblies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

In terms of criminal law, there has been a sort of quasi-federalism in the UK and its predecessor kingdoms for centuries.

In Canada there is only one criminal law, and it is exclusively controlled by the federal parliament.

In England & Wales the criminal law is generally not codified; one finds criminal offences were (and continue to be) created in topical legislation, for instance there are new criminal offences throughout the Landlord Tenant Act, 1985, a topical act rebalancing landlord-tenant responsibilities and liabilities. In Chambers, the topical Communications Act, 2003, created the relevant criminal offence.

The Criminal Code of Canada is (practically) the only place where criminal offences can be itemized, and the creation of new offences require an amendment to the Criminal Code. These amendments are usually done in standalone Acts of Parliament, however from time to time a topical Act may amend the Criminal Code. When that happens, the Code is where one looks to understand the criminal law, not the Act which amended it.

The Code is meant to be uniformly applied and interpreted in every province and territory. However, as in most systems in which criminal law is codified, the code is not especially verbose nor exhaustive of possibilites (the law is not a computer program), and first-instance courts (and appellate courts) can resolve a prosecution with a particular set of facts differently from one another. Sometimes differences in the highest appellate courts in provinces are dealt with by modifications to the Criminal Code by the federal parliament; sometimes the matters are resolved by the Supreme Court of Canada; sometimes the differents are just left different, and typically those are situations which will require such unusual circumstances that they will never be comparable to prosecutions (for the same criminal code offence) brought elsewhere in Canada.

In Epstein the judgment makes reference to various paragraphs of the Criminal Code. The Court did not see the need to make explicit reference to paragraphs in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is part of the Canadian constitution.

In Chambers the judgment makes explicit reference to the (UK) Human Rights Act, 1998, ("UKHRA") and articles of the European Convention on Human Rights (which UKHRA imported into the laws of England & Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, etc.). It also looks to other sources of law to consider what was meant by the wording of the Communications Act, by referenes to other legislation (e.g. the Malicious Communications Act, 1988) and case law (DPP v Collins (2006)).

Epstein was acquitted at trial. Chambers was convicted, but ultimately the High Court (in the chain of appeals against the initial conviction) quashed the conviction.

The judgments share some features, namely the use of long numbered paragraphs, and a detailed itemization of the law and evidence considered by the two Courts. Some court systems using codified criminal law tend to have very short judgments, and an acquittal might be memoralized in a single short paragraph which might take the form of, "the conditions for the conviction of the accused were not met so he is not convicted". This is fairly common in systems which descend from 19th century French law (Québec is not an example; it lost legal ties to France before then) or which have been highly influenced by it in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Finally, King Charles III of Canada is not really involved in matters of Canadian criminal law. The Constitution of Canada obliges him to delegate legislative, executive, prosecutorial, and judicial authority to Canadian institutions. The (less consolidated but very much written) constitution of the United Kingdom likewise ousts its monarch from a significant role in shaping and enforcing the criminal laws in the various UK jurisdictions; those powers are exercised by Parliament (or the national legislatures), various executive bodies and various courts. Nobody would take the expression "King Charles III's Justice" seriously in either country, although in some contexts one would hear pretty much exactly that formalism being uttered as an essentially empty tradition.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doesn't the noise from basketballs hitting concrete/asphalt drive you guys nuts?

Nope! The only noise in my neighborhood that sometimes annoys me is loud music, but I like people to be able to enjoy themselves.

for many people enjoying themselves means being able to enjoy their own home without being forced to listen to other people excessive noise even through closed windows.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doesn't the noise from basketballs hitting concrete/asphalt drive you guys nuts?

Turn up your music so you can't hear it? :)

people who dislike noise usually dislike music too

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. It probably is dangerous [0] because people don’t let their kids play in the street anymore so drivers aren’t used to having them there. Not like when I was a kid where we would get ball games going and pause to let the cars pass. People expected kids to be playing in the street so didn’t drive like complete lunatics. Can’…

> people don’t let their kids play in the street anymore Careful not to generalise here. This will vary wildly from place to place and street to street. Here in the Netherlands with limitations on cars I see the streets busy with children year round. I can't speak for Canada, not having been there, but I read favorable coverage on urban design channels different localities there who have committed to pedestrian frien…

Caveat: i read in another comment that the speed limit was 25 mph. That's over 40 km/hr. In .nl, speeds on roads in residential areas are typically limited to 30 km/hr (18 mph). And in woonerven, streets designed to enable kids playing on them, speed is limited to walking speed - by judicial ruling, 15km/hr (9 mph).

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#246

I feel this. I'm late to the party. But... I want to counter ask... how do folks feel about honking? Is honking a god-given right? Does this vary from giving the finger? How and why? I don't have great answers for all the above. But I seriously wholeheartedly embrace the idea of giving people the finger, and I seriously am fed up with all the honking shit and don't think people are entitled to >50% of it (and should…

Dunno about your jurisdiction; around here there are nuisance laws and traffic laws pertaining to honking that a honker would quickly run afoul of.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#247
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incrementalism. Its exceptionally effective. Before we know it, a comedian will train his dog to show us.

Lol you yanks have an actual fascist movement underway passing laws against books and education and free expression and here you are repeating their talking points concern-trolling like free speech is under attack in Canada. Get your own house in order.

There’s no rule that says you can’t be critical of another country’s policies just because your own country also has problems. After all, there are 330 million people living in the US and you can’t hold the parent responsible for all of them.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#248

  Mrs Smith sues his neighbour for calling her cow publicly all the time and wins the case. On the end of the ruling the neighbour asks the judge:
  - Does this mean I cannot call Mrs Smith cow from now on?
  - That is right.
  - But can I still call a cow Mrs Smith?
  - Yes, that you can do.
  The neighbour turns to Mrs Smith with a big sarcastic smile:
  - See you later Mrs Smith!

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> abhorrent behavior How can any sane person watch this video and say her behavior was "abhorrent?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6E105a58p8 Videos like this make me so thankful for the US constitution.

How can any sane person watch this video and say her behavior was "abhorrent?" I'm talking about the behavior that led to the protection order. She's trying to play the "thought crime" angle in order to get the protection order repealed and pretend that they're being victimized. It's disingenuous.

Arresting someone for “playing the thought crime angle” appears no different to me than arresting someone for a thought crime

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#250
post #45

[flagged]

" Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Especially please don't take HN threads into religious flamewar—it's easily avoidable and particularly poisonous.

Fair enough. I apologize.
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