Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#191

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:16 AM UTC

jpambrun wrote: post #149

version_five wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada's charter of rights and freedoms isn't worth the paper it's printed on, especially in Quebec where the government actively pre-empts it (it has a clause that allows this, explaining why it's worthless) when it doesn't line up with their ideology.

This charter and the constitution was imposed unilaterally, and adopted at night without the presence of Quebec representatives. So.. can't really blame us for not being in love with it..

I don't know the full story behind this; but if, as you say, the national government had to go behind Quebec's back to enact basic civil liberties, that says more about Quebec than the government. Using it as a defense does more harm than good to your case.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#192

Post by Nursie » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:17 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #180

rhaway84773 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blockades are not fundamental rights. Honking is not a fundamental right. Situating massive private objects on public property is not a fundamental right. Also, the government declared a state of emergency, the whole point of which is to create a temporary environment where certain rights may be ignored. I don’t see the government of Quebec declaring an emergency because of an epidemic of people flipping the bird bef…

How about donating to a cause? So-called “Freedom Convoy” protesters were ultimately responsible if banks froze their accounts under the Emergencies Act last winter, but the government was not trying to “punish” those who took part, senior bureaucrats said Thursday. The government set a precedent that donating to causes deemed "threatening" is worthy of an emergency freeze on your bank account. Well done. Canada.

That doesn’t say donor accounts were frozen.

There appears to be little evidence that donors had their accounts frozen. Accounts receiving those donations were.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#193

Post by throwawaaarrgh » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:17 AM UTC

belval wrote: post #8

If you look past the headline, this story is almost "basic sanity". The guy's neighbour didn't want the accused's kids playing in the street (in the suburbs) because they have a yard. To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. The accused flipped him off and (allegedly because he denies it) threatened him. Now frankly, I don't see why this would be hackernews-worthy,…

> I don't see why this would be hackernews-worthy

Garbage is submitted literally constantly, but some stuff is just upvote-bait, and the mods are pretty lax about pushing anything off the front page unless it particularly irks them

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#194

Post by refurb » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:20 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #192

refurb wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about donating to a cause? So-called “Freedom Convoy” protesters were ultimately responsible if banks froze their accounts under the Emergencies Act last winter, but the government was not trying to “punish” those who took part, senior bureaucrats said Thursday. The government set a precedent that donating to causes deemed "threatening" is worthy of an emergency freeze on your bank account. Well done. Canada.

That doesn’t say donor accounts were frozen. There appears to be little evidence that donors had their accounts frozen. Accounts receiving those donations were.

“Just to be clear, a financial contribution either through a crowdsourced platform or directly, could result in their bank account being frozen?” Conservative MP Philip Lawrence asked Department of Finance Assistant Deputy Minister Isabelle Jacques.

“Yes,” she replied.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/even-small-donation-t...

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#195

Post by defrost » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:34 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #194

Nursie wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t say donor accounts were frozen. There appears to be little evidence that donors had their accounts frozen. Accounts receiving those donations were.

“Just to be clear, a financial contribution either through a crowdsourced platform or directly, could result in their bank account being frozen?” Conservative MP Philip Lawrence asked Department of Finance Assistant Deputy Minister Isabelle Jacques. “Yes,” she replied. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/even-small-donation-t...

Followed by:

Such action, she said, would only be taken on donations made after Feb. 15’s emergency declaration and isn’t retroactive — adding such a case would be “very unlikely,” but definitely possible.

The main solid takeaway from that article is that 206 accounts were definitely frozen .. accounts that very probably donations were flowing into.

The rest of the article is weasel phrased, there are allegations of donors having their accounts frozen but no corroboration and then later details on how some of those stories don't add up.

A solid reference would be the actual public records that were requested to be kept:

    The committee gave unanimous consent to a motion tabled by Chambers compelling government departments and agencies to report weekly to the committee on how many accounts they’d recommended frozen, who owned them and the reasons thereof.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#196

Post by Natsu » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:35 AM UTC

iosystem wrote: post #167

rossdavidh wrote: post #49

I admit, it's long. But the ending was brilliant. "In the modern-day vernacular, people often refer to a criminal case “being thrown out”. Obviously, this is little more than a figurative expression. Cases aren’t actually thrown out, in the literal or physical sense. Nevertheless, in the specific circumstances of this case, the Court is inclined to actually take the file and throw it out the window, which is the only…

Montreal police are some of the worst police in Canada and the Montreal prosecutors always take any arrests by police before a Judge even if there are glaring mistakes at play. I know of a cancer patient that wanted medical assistance in dying. The hospital didn't want to provide it to her and lied to the police about her threatening to take a life of a doctor. She in fact was explaining to the doctor she would be ab…

In this case, they apparently ignored several prior complaints until the guy videotaped this guy giving the man (who tried to run over his kids on several occasions) the finger and making a gesture (wrongly) described as "throat slashing."

Of course, this nutjob is absolutely paranoid and was constantly driving in a reckless manner around small children who wanted to play in their neighborhood, some of whom he videotaped running away from his car which he did not attempt to slow down according to his own videos.

So once the prosecution heard all this, they actually told the judge to throw out the case. I grant he shouldn't have even been there to begin with based on what we saw, but sometimes it's hard to tell that until after the evidence is seen.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#197

Post by bawolff » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:37 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #186

labster wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, what about our Charter rights to fund terrorists? Seriously, there is a line between civil disobedience and uncivil disobedience, and they crossed it.

This comment is exactly why we need Charter Rights the government can't easily suspend. The utter lack of understanding of why these protections are needed is astounding. I wonder what they are teaching the kids in school. The government (and voters) won't hesitate to call the opposition "terrorists" and claim donating $5 to a cause is "supporting terrorism" and freeze your bank account so you can't pay rent or buy f…

From what i understand, a significant portion of those people would have had their bank accounts frozen from civil lawsuits anyways. So even without the emergencies act it was likely to happen anyways.

> This time it's the other side, next time it's you.

First they came for the violent criminals, and i did not speak up because i wasn't a violent criminal... oh wait i'm actually totally ok with that.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#198

Post by Natsu » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:41 AM UTC

hughw wrote: post #103

belval wrote: post #8

If you look past the headline, this story is almost "basic sanity". The guy's neighbour didn't want the accused's kids playing in the street (in the suburbs) because they have a yard. To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. The accused flipped him off and (allegedly because he denies it) threatened him. Now frankly, I don't see why this would be hackernews-worthy,…

With respect to "sanity", I feel sure the complainant has poor mental health, perhaps a classifiable illness. IANAP.

Can we really conclude that just because he films his neighbors and tries to run down their kids in the street by never slowing for small children playing and keeps a diary about them and tells the judge the neighbor is out to murder them?

Yes, yes we can.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#199

Post by hutzlibu » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:41 AM UTC

belval wrote: post #8

If you look past the headline, this story is almost "basic sanity". The guy's neighbour didn't want the accused's kids playing in the street (in the suburbs) because they have a yard. To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. The accused flipped him off and (allegedly because he denies it) threatened him. Now frankly, I don't see why this would be hackernews-worthy,…

"If you look past the headline, this story is almost "basic sanity""

Actually, I think "basic sanity" would have been, if the accuser would have been charged with something - as clearly they were the aggressors and actually intentionally endangering children.

And the judge seems to think so as well, but it seems all he could do in his position, was to metaphorical throw the case out of the non existing window. (if I am ever charged with something, I hope I am to be judged by someone like him)

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#200

Post by rektide » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:42 AM UTC

I feel this. I'm late to the party. But... I want to counter ask... how do folks feel about honking? Is honking a god-given right? Does this vary from giving the finger? How and why?

I don't have great answers for all the above. But I seriously wholeheartedly embrace the idea of giving people the finger, and I seriously am fed up with all the honking shit and don't think people are entitled to >50% of it (and should be punished for it). And I don't really see or get how to navigate these two "protests", what maxims to apply, how to see these cases which I think have different judgements as actually different.

Maybe it's just the social cost: a personal insult of a middle finger versus a civically-disturbing loud horn blow. And that kind of checks out. This decision feels right on to me (which I understand countries like Germany highly disagree on atm): you're free to express that. Maybe the social cost is that, once you start using a very loud system of alert as a way to indicate anger, you dilute the exigency of this alert system, become a cause of false-alarm that creates a real risk that real-alarm goes unnoted. Maybe that's a good enough case against letting drivers honk, a check.

But to go back to the general: this decision is about not limiting, but what are the limits? What are problematic displeasures? What lines shouldn't we accept? If someone flips the bird, how much counter-permission do you have to be a terror? This case suggests flipping the bird back might be a counter-God-given-right, but can we scream our head off back? Can we honk for the next 5 minutes after seeing someone flip a bird at us? Can we drive aggressively?