Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely • Hacker News Board

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

#381

Post by roenxi » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:14 PM UTC

NineStarPoint wrote: post #317

roenxi wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we start with the assumption that the cost of childcare is costly enough that it would lead to an unacceptable drop in living standards for the average couple, and then force them to pay that cost anyway ( regardless of whether they actually have children) it is unlikely that the follow up is going to be the couple having kids. They'll probably be busy desperately working to get their living standard up to a state…

Main problem with your logic is that it assumes a situation where most people are having kids. Given the situation in Scandinavia is that many people aren’t having children, you end up in a situation where everyone is being taxed to fund childcare, while most people aren’t actually taking advantage of that taxation, so those who are can actually gain more resources than they put in.

The average woman in a Scandinavian country has 1.6 kids. That suggests it is quite common. Going by averages, literally every woman has a child, and half the men.

In actual practice there will be particularly fertile women that have more children and their childcare needs will be draining resources from others, making it harder for them to form families.

I should stress that I don't think childcare costs are the big driver of low fertility. But to say that resource reallocation is going to help is a bit ... I mean, where are these resources going to come from? Everyone was already putting their resources towards their families, diverting money away from those families is the engine that powers the state. That is where the soldiers come from, the welfare comes from, all the labour, where the goods get produced, etc. We'd be asking them to stop caring for their families and instead spend all day caring for their families but according to how the government wants instead of what they actually think they need. You can't take from them, give it back to them and expect them to have more. They aren't even going to have the same.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

#382

Post by suprjami » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:20 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #179

zmmmmm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my experience is that most people don't have the discipline or will to do this This widely believed anecdotally driven piece of opinion-data was what COVID invalidated. Studies demonstrated no significant loss in productivity and in many cases increased productivity during WFH during covid - putting aside contexts where it was clearly unsuitable / suboptimal (people trapped in their houses with small kids, no appro…

It is my personal experience at my own workplace. I literally saw with my own eyes that if I don't force employees to have a proper work environment, then they won't set one up by themselves, only to get back pain a few days later.

Your sample size of one doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

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Post by 3np » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 11:45 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #370

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep saying - if they aren't doing the job you'd fire them even if they were in office. If you think they are working two jobs but they are getting their job done you have to ask yourself - are you paying for someone to get the job done (which in this scenario they are) or someone you force to sit in a seat for x amount of time each week?

Exactly! As a manager if you hire someone to do X, Y, and Z, and he does X, Y, and Z with high quality and up to your expectations in 20 hours, why do you care if he spends his other 20 hours working for Facebook? Assuming performance is good and no confidential information is being shared, the guys second job doesn't hurt you. I think they just don't want to admit the reason: That if they knew the worker was getting…

Sure, but "hiring someone to do X, Y, Z" is generally consulting, freelancing, or outsourcing.

Employment contracts are typically tied to number of hours (much like service and retail). If you dedicate the 20-40 agreed hours per week to the employer and don't tread on noncompetes or NDA, reasonable managers will have no issues with side-hustles.

At any moment in time, your attention can only be working for one employer. That's what you're paid for as an employee. Much like you typically can't wait tables for several restaurants simultaneously. If you want delivery-based contracts you're looking for a different kind of relationship.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

#384

Post by bradleyjg » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 12:02 AM UTC

suprjami wrote: post #380

bradleyjg wrote: post #233

I think the debate here has grown pretty stale. There’s a lot of arguing about what’s right or wrong, when this isn’t really about right or wrong. There’s a factual question here about whether remote first companies are more, less, or equally competitive with office first companies. Anecdotes aren’t going to answer that question. Logical arguments aren’t going to answer that question. Passionate rants about pointy ha…

> Anecdotes aren’t going to answer that question If only a tech recruitment company would publish biannual findings from their factual observations of the whole industry, they'd have a strong evidence-based vantage point which none of us individual tech workers have. They could use a catchy name like "Hired dot com" and people would write news articles about their findings. Oh well.

That doesn’t tell us how remote first companies will compete in the marketplace. It’s just gazing at our own navels. We need to wait and see how things shake out.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

#385

Post by quickthrower2 » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 12:03 AM UTC

coffeebeqn wrote: post #263

lnsru wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have roughly 60 sqft for me in the office. 6 feet wide table and walkway behind me. At home I have 160 sqft room dedicated for work. The difference can’t be bigger.

That’s big! At the open office I had.. my desk and a tiny bit of personal space since I lucked out on a corner near a window. A few feet of space to the side and back of my desk

Yeah it is common to end up with a desk, a desk worth of space for your chair and maybe half a desk walkway. What tends to happen is company expands but moving office is too hard so is put off.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

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Post by ll_mama » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 1:34 AM UTC

Gigachad wrote: post #69

ll_mama wrote: post #43

So let them? What's the deal, why can't we have a society where people who want to work from home, do so while those who want to work remotely do so as well? I do know that I am deciding for myself (100% remote).

Because if companies decide that in office is more productive or more reliable, remote options will dry up. And the fact most big tech companies are going back to office suggests they have the data to show it is more effective.

Where is the data? If this is true, then this is something companies will have to learn to deal with, and compensate differently for. If I enjoy working from home better, but am 10% less productive, please pay me 10% less. It's still not worth for me to show up to an office.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

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Post by kvonhorn » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 1:54 AM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #266

Tangurena2 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father was a chemical engineer. Back in the 60s & 70s, the company would pay to relocate our family to wherever they needed him (this included purchasing the house if we didn't sell it before the moving trucks showed up). That included several foreign countries. In my family's experience, that included England, Iran, Ireland & Saudi Arabia. During the 80s, his industry stopped relocating engineers. This correspond…

If companies start buying upside-down homes, they're probably going to start holding them until they can at least wash out. I'd hate to see a trend of employers becoming landlords.

Elon Musk reportedly wants to be his employees' landlord: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/elon-musk-reported...

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

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Post by Valakas_ » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 3:39 AM UTC

mikkelam wrote: post #197

european single male pov: 1. I like my 30 minute bike ride to work 2. I like the social interaction, laughing, chatting and atmosphere of my office 3. I am less productive, but I'm not a machine. I (should) care about my well being more 4. I still work from home once in a while. Flexibility is key But, everyone is different. I totally understand many people have a lot more reasons than me to work remotely

You claim to like it.

Let's see: If you were paid regardless of going to work or working or not, would you still keep going there and doing your job?

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

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Post by Valakas_ » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 3:41 AM UTC

perryizgr8 wrote: post #85

re-thc wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure it's data driven or perception?

Does it matter? The end result is the same. Plenty of big problems in the world are based only on perceptions.

"Because X is done like this, then Y should also be done like this."

Cannot see any fault in this argument.

And no, the end result is not the same if in reality one is more productive then the other.

Re: Nearly 40% of software engineers will only work remotely

#390

Post by suprjami » Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:39 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #384

suprjami wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotes aren’t going to answer that question If only a tech recruitment company would publish biannual findings from their factual observations of the whole industry, they'd have a strong evidence-based vantage point which none of us individual tech workers have. They could use a catchy name like "Hired dot com" and people would write news articles about their findings. Oh well.

That doesn’t tell us how remote first companies will compete in the marketplace. It’s just gazing at our own navels. We need to wait and see how things shake out.

The entire premise of the article is that remote-hiring companies have access to premium talent that office-hiring companies don't. So yes, it clearly answers your question.