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Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

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Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#331

> decentralized, text-based social network We had that. It was called Usenet, and it was great. Google destroyed it, so Facebook is going to own the next one from the get-go? Doesn't sound good.

BBS networks (eg FidoNet, PC-Relay) were pretty great too.

FWIW, I believe, but cannot prove, that content moderation on Internet accessible "open" messaging systems (aka store & forward, decentralized) is not feasible.

Back in the day, I was hub for a small BBS network as well as moderated a forum on CompuServe. It was manageable, but a lot of work, esp for volunteers like me. These days, there's no way I could do a reasonable job.

I guess we'll see if I'm correct with the Mastodon experiment.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#332
post #41

> decentralized, text-based social network We had that. It was called Usenet, and it was great. Google destroyed it, so Facebook is going to own the next one from the get-go? Doesn't sound good.

Usenet was destroyed by spam. Even if you set up your client to have your groups clean, for any new arrival without guidance it was a horrible experience that required a lot of effort in bringing signal out of the noise. What killed it was not having a distributed spam filtering as it became popular.

Usenet had spam filtering that was at least somewhat decentralized and that worked, though maybe not fully distributed. Some alt groups that didn't use it became unusable, and a few groups (sci.crypt) were intentionally destroyed by sporgery that was hard to stop by filters. There were also moderated groups that were hard to spam because of cryptographic signatures in the moderation approval. IIRC the signatures were 512 bit RSA, so maybe the keys can be cracked by now.

I think spam may have been less of an issue than the exploding size of binary newsgroups used for distributing warez and pr0n. That is a big reason ISP's gave up on it. Plus politicians like NY Gov Cuomo (not sure which Gov Cuomo, there were two that I know of) crusaded against it since OMG people could post anonymously.

I think Usenet with a few adjustments for velocity control is still a perfectly viable scheme. Every time I look at BBS software and think about how to do it better, the answer turns out to be Usenet.

If you read the novel "A Fire Upon The Deep" you might be amused to find that in it, Usenet still exists in an era of interstellar travel.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#333
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since its really just the promise of social networks that people like. In practice it has not worked as a means of connecting people to each other. I went off FB for a year or two, only to come back on when the pandemic started. I definitely missed the connections and conversations I had with family and friends across the world while I was gone. If I could have that without feeling like I was contributing to all th…

The ad experience will come, because that's really the best option for a lot of platforms to monetize...and no one is running a charity. By that point a lot of users have been locked in and essentially just going with it.

Loads of organizations have been running core infrastructure from donations for decades now. If you don't need to write new code, and don't have a pressure to actually turn a profit, and have people with enough investment in the community to donate time doing moderation / sysadmin tasks, then it should be easy to get enough donations to keep a server up and running.

In any case, one of the core functionalities of most federated software is the ability to migrate your profile somewhere else.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#334
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are optional in the same way how postal service is optional. Sure, you may just drive / sail / fly to whoever you want your package delivered... chances are you'd rebel against this seeing how everyone else simply drops their package by the nearest collection point. Social networks today provide service beyond simply catching up with friends and family. They serve as front desks of companies' customer support, t…

I think people fall into this delusion, but if you can peel yourself out of it, you’d find it’s not really true at all. One of the best politically served groups in the US are elderly evangelical Christians - this doesn’t come from being on social media.

That's not a delusion.

Specifically, the mechanism by which customer support is communicating with customers on social networks provides a lot of value to the customers because companies cannot gaslight individual customers. This works a lot better than even if you had a lawyer on your side, willing to work for you w/o compensation because the company might just hire a better lawyer.

I've literally been in this situation before: I had intermittent connection problems and had to call ISP to look into the cabling. Once the technician finally came, he found that a squatter took over the entrance to the breaker room on the roof, so he could no longer get access to the switch the company installed there. Because he wasn't able to do anything w/o police intervening and breaking into squatter's illegal construction, he just left... I still had no Internet connection, so I decided to terminate my subscription early.

Well, the ISP wouldn't have it. I had to jump through a lot of hoops, including closing and opening a bank account just to prevent the ISP from charging me for service they did not provide. I did it on principle, even though it would've been cheaper to just pay them few months. Come the end of my contract period, I get a summons to a court because the ISP hired a lawyer to go over cases like mine and try to intimidate individual customers into settling the arguments by paying the ISP (of course, by that time they tried to scare me with a fine that was about ten times the money I'd owe them on the contract).

So, I had to search for lawyer organization which volunteered to provide customer protection, but due to them being an NGO, they had a requirement that they would only provide their services if I could show that my yearly income was below X, which, unfortunately, it wasn't, and so I had to pay a lawyer from my own money to deal with this case. In the end, the ISP backed off, but nobody compensated me even for the lawyer I had to hire. Needless to say that it's not possible to compensate the time spent on this.

This was before social networks were popular enough to do this:

----

I had a very similar situation, which was simply due to me moving into another apartment which didn't have a coaxial outlet, so, I couldn't continue my contract with the ISP. They decided to pull the same trick. It was a single post on their Facebook page describing the situation that got me a phone call from their customer support department and my contract was terminated. Without charge.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#335
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are optional in the same way how postal service is optional. Sure, you may just drive / sail / fly to whoever you want your package delivered... chances are you'd rebel against this seeing how everyone else simply drops their package by the nearest collection point. Social networks today provide service beyond simply catching up with friends and family. They serve as front desks of companies' customer support, t…

Going back to the OP, if people are voluntarily using social networks because they make it easier to catch up with friends and family, why should we "ditch the concept in general"? Should we go back to the days of communicating to each other via letters?

Communicating with individuals is only a small fraction of what social network provides.

How are you going to communicate with a group of peers who all need to know everyone's responses to your messages... by mail? Do you realize how long this will take and how cumbersome it will be?

How would you make it possible for others, who weren't part of the conversation to come later and rediscover your entire conversation letter by letter?

Letters aren't a good replacement to social networks if you are thinking about a pre-digital age. Newspapers that publish paid advertisements are probably a better replacement... but they also don't quite fit because they lack the function of private messaging...

I don't think we have an equivalent to social networks in pre-digital world.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#336
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ads aren't the problem of social networks. They are the problem of the Web. Usenets were the first social networks, but their monetization scheme didn't allow for mega international companies to exist: they were paid for to ISPs and ISPs only pay other ISPs for traffic, they don't pay for individual services. Email used to be the same way... sigh . Web became the platform that enabled for advertisement to be mixe…

This ignores the algorithmic ordering of social media feeds, which was unique to Facebook and then widely copied by all the other ad-ridden socials. There was no "connecting people" reason for them to do it, it was done because it made it easier to throw ads in to readers' feeds and make sure they'd be noticed.

There's nothing exclusive about social media in this regard. Any Web application that could do that, tried to do that. Web search engines? -- didn't they try to tailor search results to your profile (or paid advertisement)? Retailers? -- didn't they try to suggest related goods based on your profile (or paid advertisement)?

Everyone on the Web who used ads wanted to know your profile and wanted to manipulate the contents they provided to you based on it (and the wishes of those who pay for the ads).

Again, the problem is not the social media. The problem is the Web.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* * What if it's going to be part of the Fediverse?

That's actually a significant worry. Embrace, extend, extinguish: is a standard playbook for monopolists and oligopolists everywhere in tech. 1. Make "cool corporate mastodon server" that all the cool kids play on. 2. Extend the masto code with proprietary extensions for better features, but DONT SHARE CODE 3. Convert people on other masto instances cause they don't have "cool feature". 4. Users flock to "cool masto…

People said the same thing when Tumblr added ActivityPub.

The most likely situation is that the fediverse would spot this tactic and mass de-federate anyone who tried it, so that bad actor would be left making their own island and any investment in federation would be lost.

It doesn't make business sense to try and EEE the fediverse.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pollutants are people as they’ve always been. Social media is a natural progression of society. It has all the same positives and negatives of an local social structure.

Is there really a "natural" progression of society? Especially in an age of computers and advanced communication, it is difficult to know what is natural anymore.

I didn’t mean natural in that sense. Smart-phone-social-media would be unnatural in the same sense that the wheel is unnatural. (In that it wasn’t present for most 99% of our evolution.)

Humans didn’t evolve with access to semiconductors, but the social dynamics in social networks have always been there. They’ve just been augmented by semiconductors.

I doubt anyone here would disagree with me that it’s better having more ways to communicate with relatives overseas. That’s all I’m really saying. These new methods of communication come with serious baggage, but they’re still inherently positive I think.

Re: Meta is building a decentralized, text-based social network

#340
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just going to reply with EEE, but the situation you're describing presents a problem. Suppose the network wants to be able to handle billions of users, but you want to keep each instance "small," i.e. thousands of users. Then you'll have millions of instances. Having each instance manually curate a list of others it federates with isn't going to work, but neither is instances not federating with the large major…

This assumes you (or rather: those users) want all of those billions of users to be directly interconnected. Most people on Mastodon seem to be perfectly fine with living in a microcosm compared to Twitter.

Humans demand connectedness. There's something to be said for participating in seven independent communities with seven independent accounts, but when you see something from Community A and want to share it with Community B, a system that doesn't allow either account to make that connection is going to frustrate people, and get outcompeted at the system level by something that does.
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