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Why Poverty Persists in America

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#81

Post by bryanlarsen »

carapace wrote: post #79
humanrebar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh... you have some valid points, but poverty has existed under every single policy regime so far. Ever. In history. So why should I accept that the root problem is bad policy instead of something else?

Except that's not true, there was no poverty in all of North America, for example, up until a couple of hundred years ago. In case this sounds snarky, let me be clear: this is a really important thing to consider (IMO): there are societies without poverty. It's just that most of us (reading this here today) are unfamiliar with them because they were and are actively destroyed by the poverty-having societies. (E.g. th…

Death due to starvation occured in North America prior to Columbus. If that isn't a symptom of poverty I don't know what is.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#82

Post by bryanlarsen »

giantg2 wrote: post #58
insane_dreamer wrote: post #25

Reducing the U.S. military budget by 20% and spending it on poverty relief programs could eliminate poverty to a large degree in the U.S. (not entirely, but that's unrealistic). It's not that the government doesn't have the money or that we're not paying enough in taxes. It's that we're spending it on the wrong things (if we want to have a generally prosperous and stable society).

"and spending it on poverty relief programs could eliminate poverty to a large degree in the U.S." No, it won't, assuming you're talking about existing programs. The current programs aren't designed to fix the problems the recipients face. They're merely designed to keep people alive (food, medical care, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with getting those people jobs with pay high enough to exit the support s…

The Child Tax Credit of 2021 has been massively successful. That's probably why there's massive pressure to let it expire.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#83

Post by kevviiinn »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #80
celeritascelery wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a strong correlation between poverty and single parent households[1 2 3]. However it is not a popular thing to talk about because it can feel like “blaming the victim”. But if we ignore it we can’t have productive conversations about how to solve poverty. [1] https://post.ca.gov/portals/0/post_docs/publications/Buildin... [2] https://ifstudies.org/blog/less-poverty-less-prison-more-col... [3] https://www.the…

But is the correlation cause or effect? AFAICT, there is strong evidence that poverty is a leading cause of single parent households.

This is why it's important to remember that correlation != causation

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#84

Post by slowmovintarget »

cmh89 wrote: post #74
prottog wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the other commenter replied, inner-city gang culture is a principal example that is destructive to so many children's futures. Even among groups that would be categorized together in the US, such as African-Americans, you can see a clear divided in outcomes between cultures; Nigerian-Americans, for example, have a higher average income than the US average, and nearly twice that of Somali-Americans. Average incomes…

>As the other commenter replied, inner-city gang culture is a principal example that is destructive to so many children's futures. Why do you think 'inner-city' gang culture develops? >Even among groups that would be categorized together in the US, such as African-Americans, you can see a clear divided in outcomes between cultures; Nigerian-Americans, for example, have a higher average income than the US average, and…

The world has seen actual systemic racism: apartheid in South Africa.

Applying that term to 21st Century Western governments is ideological nonsense. Were there systemic racism, it would equally impact immigrant populations, but it doesn't. Some groups that come from differing cultures have differing rates of success though they share the same racial characteristics.

This is also true for native groups in the U.S. The idea of systemic racism also fails to account for the poor who belong to the supposedly favored racial groups.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#85

Post by yucky »

cmh89 wrote: post #77
blindriver wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crime in Chicago isn't talked about? That's not been my experience. It's literally infamous for it. If you ask your coworker today, how many shootings were there in Chicago last weekend, unless you live in or near Chicago, they will be shocked that there were 17 shootings and 4 homicides just over the weekend. Murders are "down" in 2023 with only 83 murders since Jan 1, 2023. We are only 10 weeks into the year. > T…

>If you ask your coworker today, how many shootings were there in Chicago last weekend, unless you live in or near Chicago, they will be shocked that there were 17 shootings and 4 homicides just over the weekend. Would they? Literally everyone who reads the news knows Chicago has a lot of shootings. This sounds like something you made up to drive a narrative rather than basing it in truth. > think if enough money is…

  > Can you point to a very poor place that is safe due to the police?
Most rural areas are generally quite safe and their police are very powerful in the community.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#86

Post by giantg2 »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #73
giantg2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, that's basically moot in the discussion of why people are poor. People have to earn money to put in those accounts. Real wages have fallen for the past 50 years. The barrier to entry for any job has increased (criminal record issues, college, certifications, responsibilities of multiple roles being lumped together), and some classes of jobs (primary and secondary sectors requiring lower education/skill) have dimi…

That downward pressure is from outsourcing. Unions can organize all they want. Politicians can raise the minimum wage all they want. Those things don't fix the main problem that the making-things-here jobs that support wage increases across the board are absent.

I've always found it interesting that there are politicians that claim to be pro-union and pro-environment, but then also claim to be free trade. Outsourcing means you lose union jobs and they typically end up in countries with worse environmental protections. I've always found it wild how contradictory those positions have been.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#87

Post by wootland »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #84
cmh89 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As the other commenter replied, inner-city gang culture is a principal example that is destructive to so many children's futures. Why do you think 'inner-city' gang culture develops? >Even among groups that would be categorized together in the US, such as African-Americans, you can see a clear divided in outcomes between cultures; Nigerian-Americans, for example, have a higher average income than the US average, and…

The world has seen actual systemic racism: apartheid in South Africa. Applying that term to 21st Century Western governments is ideological nonsense. Were there systemic racism, it would equally impact immigrant populations, but it doesn't. Some groups that come from differing cultures have differing rates of success though they share the same racial characteristics . This is also true for native groups in the U.S. T…

Systemic racism most certainly exists in the US. Not only was slavery widespread, there were never any reparations to those enslaved (or Native Americans). There are Black people alive today who existed prior to having their civil rights legally encoded in the 1960s. Our capitalist system is an illusion built on the back of "free" land and labor and those who had their land and labor stripped from them have never been made whole. It's pretty much the definition of systemic racism, just like apartheid in South Africa and Israel.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#88

Post by KMag »

prottog wrote: post #68
speculativename wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1950s you could also afford to raise a family of 4 on a single (male) income. If a single mother's income today was comparable to a husband's income back in the 50's relative to cost of living, this wouldn't be an issue at all. Or, you know, if we had any number of institutions in this country which are more common in the rest of the developed world, such as paid childcare and maternity leave, affordable healt…

You're comparing a dual-parent household to a single-parent household and claiming that if they made the same amount of money, the children would be equally well off. I'm not sure where you get this idea.

Right. Even when the kids are old enough to be in school full-time, there's still lots of "free" labor that's being left out of the GP's reasoning. A single parent's earning power would need to be significantly higher than a 1950's man's earning power and/or they'd need the same earning power with significantly more non-work hours per week.

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#89

Post by giantg2 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #82
giantg2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and spending it on poverty relief programs could eliminate poverty to a large degree in the U.S." No, it won't, assuming you're talking about existing programs. The current programs aren't designed to fix the problems the recipients face. They're merely designed to keep people alive (food, medical care, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with getting those people jobs with pay high enough to exit the support s…

The Child Tax Credit of 2021 has been massively successful. That's probably why there's massive pressure to let it expire.

Wasn't the child tax credit change just that it was sent monthly instead of with the tax refund?

Re: Why Poverty Persists in America

#90

Post by cmh89 »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #84
cmh89 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As the other commenter replied, inner-city gang culture is a principal example that is destructive to so many children's futures. Why do you think 'inner-city' gang culture develops? >Even among groups that would be categorized together in the US, such as African-Americans, you can see a clear divided in outcomes between cultures; Nigerian-Americans, for example, have a higher average income than the US average, and…

The world has seen actual systemic racism: apartheid in South Africa. Applying that term to 21st Century Western governments is ideological nonsense. Were there systemic racism, it would equally impact immigrant populations, but it doesn't. Some groups that come from differing cultures have differing rates of success though they share the same racial characteristics . This is also true for native groups in the U.S. T…

You should look up intersectionality! It would help you understand the very real presence of systemic racism!

Systemic racism doesn't mean all white people will be rich or all Black people will be poor.

Systemic racism frequently intersects with poverty, educational attainment, networks, and other factors.

The type of person who has the resources to emigrate legally to the United States at this point in time is generally going to have higher educational attainment and the income that comes with it than native born people.

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