Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms • Hacker News Board

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#171

Post by 7952 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 10:38 AM UTC

onepointsixC wrote: post #157

hefferbub wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

13 years is immediate? Let’s please not have our future depend on building giant, fragile things that are obsolete technologically and financially before they are even completed. Wind and PV have some challenges, but they get online fast. Plus they are both riding down a steep cost S-curve, so (for the foreseeable future) the more you build, the cheaper the next one gets. No one could say that about Nuclear with a st…

>13 years is immediate? Yes. Please tell me the alternative solar or wind solution which can provide us with a carbon free grid in 13 years. There is none. You have to hand wave and pretend that maybe the next 13 years of battery technology will be fundamentally different than the past 30 years since the invention of the Lithium ion battery. Even if we had the battery solution today we don't have the global manufactu…

You are comparing apples to oranges. We don't have the global industrial capacity to deploy nuclear at scale either. And the intrinsic technology challenge is more difficult with nuclear.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#172

Post by Ekaros » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 10:40 AM UTC

audunw wrote: post #51

giantg2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'By comparison, solar and wind seem like classic "worse is better."' If we look at a long enough timeline, there really shouldn't be much change. The replacement of coal and gas plants would be with much cheaper renewable but also with higher cost nuclear. The average should land near the old price. What we observe is that the renewables have a head start compared to nuclear adoption so it seems like prices are highe…

Or the cost of renewables + energy storage + smarter flexible loads will just become lower than nuclear all-in-all. Seems to me that, now that both transportation and grid management is pouring bucketloads of money into energy storage technology, they'll just continue to improve and come down. I mean, just as some countries are hitting 50%+ of renewables, and the variability is becoming a significant challenge, we're…

I wonder if population is ready for smarter flexible loads. At least if they start to actually affect them. Like grid telling your home to drop temperature or that hot water is not available at certain time. Or that AC is turned off, due to bad wind conditions...

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#173

Post by kgabis » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 10:46 AM UTC

Gwypaas wrote: post #166

cbmuser wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, decarbonize the grid the way France did it. Don’t follow Germany’s example. It’s that simple.

The French example is amazing. A bunch of negative learning by doing and then the total boondoggle of Flamanville 3. Lets emulate. Have a look at this crudely drawn graph to see the nuclear French cost over time with Flamanville 3 added as a cherry on top: https://imgur.com/6G2RBa0 On the other hand Germany has gone from about zero to 50% renewables while spearheading the renewable market. Sure, personally I would pr…

What fruits? German co2 emissions per capital are similar to coal heavy Poland. Energiewende is a massive failure and a great example of politics screwing people and environment over.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#174

Post by Gwypaas » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 11:17 AM UTC

kgabis wrote: post #173

Gwypaas wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French example is amazing. A bunch of negative learning by doing and then the total boondoggle of Flamanville 3. Lets emulate. Have a look at this crudely drawn graph to see the nuclear French cost over time with Flamanville 3 added as a cherry on top: https://imgur.com/6G2RBa0 On the other hand Germany has gone from about zero to 50% renewables while spearheading the renewable market. Sure, personally I would pr…

What fruits? German co2 emissions per capital are similar to coal heavy Poland. Energiewende is a massive failure and a great example of politics screwing people and environment over.

Which is amazing considering that Germany has 2.8x the GDP per capita of Poland. As I said, I do not agree with phasing out nuclear before renewables.

Short of that transforming the electricity sector of Germany from all fossil and some nuclear to 50% renewables in 15 years is nothing short of incredible.

Add the current exponential growth in renewables to that, now when the cost side does not require subsidies anymore, and we have an incredible future ahead of us.

Or as wiki puts it, they choose after Fukushima to not use nuclear as a bridging technology.

> The key policy document outlining the Energiewende was published by the German government in September 2010, some six months before the Fukushima nuclear accident.[1] Legislative support was passed in September 2010. On 6 June 2011, following Fukushima, the government removed the use of nuclear power as a bridging technology as part of their policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiewende#Status

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#175

Post by wil421 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 12:09 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #148

wil421 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m only paying $0.08 cents in Georgia but I’m with another energy provider that has the lowest rates in the state (if their marketing material is correct).

Sawnee EMC charges 7.67 cents per kWh ($0.0767) [0]. Georgia Power (most of metro Atlanta) charges 5.8-10.6 cents per kWh depending on season and amount consumes [1]. Georgia is very lucky to have cheap electricity. I think it’s in part to having nuclear power plants. [0] https://file.sawnee.com/web-docs/rates/Residential-Service-R... [1] https://www.georgiapower.com/residential/billing-and-rate-pl...

Thanks. I am going to email Cobb EMC and ask why Sawnee has lower rates yet they claim they have the lowest.

Actually Sawnee is tiered so you would only get that rate below 100 kWh and the warm weather rates go up during specifics months. Cobb EMC rates don’t change unless you do the Niteflex program.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#176

Post by kgabis » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 12:26 PM UTC

Gwypaas wrote: post #174

kgabis wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What fruits? German co2 emissions per capital are similar to coal heavy Poland. Energiewende is a massive failure and a great example of politics screwing people and environment over.

Which is amazing considering that Germany has 2.8x the GDP per capita of Poland. As I said, I do not agree with phasing out nuclear before renewables. Short of that transforming the electricity sector of Germany from all fossil and some nuclear to 50% renewables in 15 years is nothing short of incredible. Add the current exponential growth in renewables to that, now when the cost side does not require subsidies anymo…

Per capita per gdp it's 70% higher than France. Going 50% renewables was a huge undertaking but it's clear it wasn't the right thing to do considering this money could've been spent on building more nuclear. It's all about decarbonisation, not about increasing share of renewable energy. Climate doesn't care about your share of renewables. Another thing to consider is that this transistion was in large part built on gas imported from Russia which funded the current war in Ukraine. And I would argue that growth of renewables in Germany has largerly stalled, barely any new wind farms are added to the grid nowadays. More solar has been added in recent years but Germany is so far north that it doesn't make much sense to build solar there (esp. considering energy requirements for winter). Energiewende is a big failure and the faster Germans notice the better.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#177

Post by Gwypaas » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

kgabis wrote: post #176

Gwypaas wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is amazing considering that Germany has 2.8x the GDP per capita of Poland. As I said, I do not agree with phasing out nuclear before renewables. Short of that transforming the electricity sector of Germany from all fossil and some nuclear to 50% renewables in 15 years is nothing short of incredible. Add the current exponential growth in renewables to that, now when the cost side does not require subsidies anymo…

Per capita per gdp it's 70% higher than France. Going 50% renewables was a huge undertaking but it's clear it wasn't the right thing to do considering this money could've been spent on building more nuclear. It's all about decarbonisation, not about increasing share of renewable energy. Climate doesn't care about your share of renewables. Another thing to consider is that this transistion was in large part built on g…

You are stuck in the mindset of a blank slate with Energiewende as one of the options ahead of you. That decision is done, you can not revert it. The cost is paid.

We are now in 2023. This is how the cost for solar PV and wind have transformed, since that decision.

https://www.lazard.com/media/451886/grphx_lcoe-09.png

We are at the end of that graph. The outlook is not 2009, it is 2023. In 2023 renewables are the only choice, economically. When we hit 70-90% penetration depending on country there will be new problems to solve, but we are extremely far from that.

The current large build-out is off-shore wind, since that has higher capacity factors. We will see to what percentage of penetration that brings us. Then some sprinkling of solar on top because it is essentially free.

Nuclear and renewables both compete for the slice of the energy market being the most inflexible cheapest power source. Renewables win that by a landslide. Now nuclear becomes load following, and that horrific investment became even worse.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#178

Post by kgabis » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 12:51 PM UTC

Gwypaas wrote: post #177

kgabis wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per capita per gdp it's 70% higher than France. Going 50% renewables was a huge undertaking but it's clear it wasn't the right thing to do considering this money could've been spent on building more nuclear. It's all about decarbonisation, not about increasing share of renewable energy. Climate doesn't care about your share of renewables. Another thing to consider is that this transistion was in large part built on g…

You are stuck in the mindset of a blank slate with Energiewende as one of the options ahead of you. That decision is done, you can not revert it. The cost is paid. We are now in 2023. This is how the cost for solar PV and wind have transformed, since that decision. https://www.lazard.com/media/451886/grphx_lcoe-09.png We are at the end of that graph. The outlook is not 2009, it is 2023. In 2023 renewables are the onl…

LCOE doesn't account for storage, backup and grid costs, please don't use it as a go to indicator that renewables are cheap. How much offshore capacity was added in the last 3 years in Germany? Zero? Or am I mistaken?

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#179

Post by Gwypaas » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:14 PM UTC

kgabis wrote: post #178

Gwypaas wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are stuck in the mindset of a blank slate with Energiewende as one of the options ahead of you. That decision is done, you can not revert it. The cost is paid. We are now in 2023. This is how the cost for solar PV and wind have transformed, since that decision. https://www.lazard.com/media/451886/grphx_lcoe-09.png We are at the end of that graph. The outlook is not 2009, it is 2023. In 2023 renewables are the onl…

LCOE doesn't account for storage, backup and grid costs, please don't use it as a go to indicator that renewables are cheap. How much offshore capacity was added in the last 3 years in Germany? Zero? Or am I mistaken?

Energy grids tend to converge to LCOE of the producers. Just look at the average prices before the current crisis haphazardly replacing Russian gas with alternatives. We are also talking about the 70-90% case here, for that case no storage is needed. That is the point.

A stupid solution, which is cheaper than nuclear, is simply burning hydrogen in turbines like todays peaker plants. We are not at the point where it is needed, so everyone is instead looking for smarter solution.

The European grid is interconnected. UK awarded contracts to add 7 GW @ 60% capacity factor = 4.2 GW average last summer.

Germany seems to have added ~500 MW in off-shore wind in the last three years, so with that generations capacity factor about 230 MW in average power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_offshore_wind_farms_in...

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#180

Post by exabrial » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:43 PM UTC

Gwypaas wrote: post #164

exabrial wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1. Build a swimming pool somewhere in the US Step... There is no other steps. Don't overthink it. A couple of hot bricks every 5 years isn't something to freak out about.

The risk is the soup of strangely radioactive materials leaking into the water table. Fission is not a clean chemical reaction, this is the spread of the atomic masses for different kinds of fission processes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission#/media/File:Th...

We’re Perry good a building swimming pools at this point.

We’ll be fine.