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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#651

Post by p4bl0 »

AYBABTME wrote: post #589
cmehdy wrote: post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

This is all dramatic and very tragic, but the numbers don't make sense. It's not something where passion should win over reason. Current and future generations will be screwed if this pension system isn't reformed. If anything Macron deserves applauses for committing political suicide for the greater good

This is not true. Numbers aren't alarming at all. And there are many solutions that could be deployed if it were the case. It is a matter of political choice.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#652

Post by __turbobrew__ »

grecy wrote: post #609
jackvalentine wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An aboriginal man in Australia is suing on exactly that basis - he has a lower life expectancy and so wants access to the pension earlier. https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/uncle-dennis-is-taking-t...

I've always wondered about suing the government for raising the retirement age. They're changing the deal we agreed to, without my consent. If I had known the full extent of the altered deal (i.e. no retirement till 69), I would have made different decisions from the start. If I have a 20 year mortgage with the bank I can't just change the terms so that the deal suits me better. Why can the government do that with my…

The government regularly screws people over without their consent. The repercussions is to protest and make the government’s life as miserable as possible.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#653

Post by bobwaycott »

tekla wrote: post #499
atleastoptimal wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we removed the electoral college in the US, or if voting day were a national holiday, all those issues would automatically be addressed. The old and conservative make too powerful a voting block, and it perpetuates every corporate, oligarchic, xenophobic greed cycle one could point to as a rot in our system. I don't think old people are bad because they're just taking government money and have big fancy houses, bu…

The "all problems will be solved if all my political policies are implemented" seems to be a fairly insidious strain of authoritarianism that is infecting the progressives.

That fairly insidious strain of authoritarianism isn’t infecting progressives alone, sadly. Nor is it infecting progressives more. The “all problems will be solved if all my political policies are implemented” argument appears to be the starting line of most vocalized political positions.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#654

Post by yunohn »

RestlessMind wrote: post #437
billforsternz wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been pondering this exact point for a while. I think we are seeing Western economies regressing to the mean, it's a long term trend. I'm not happy about it, but I can't claim it's not fair.

> I can't claim it's not fair. Fair to whom? Why should middle class in the West vote to allow outsourcing to cheaper countries? That will just destroy their well-paying jobs in exchange for some cheap Chinese goods and Indian call centers. I also feel the same way about current "remote first" trend - American software engineers are shooting themselves in the foot by embracing remote work. Wait until your salaries ge…

The Western standard of living has only been possible through currency/sage suppression of the non-Western world. Why do you think relocating everything to the West would be feasible or solve anything?

I don’t understand why this isn’t common sense.

> some cheap Chinese goods and Indian call centers

Then again, if you have such a naive view of globalisation, you probably need to read more.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#655

Post by fathyb »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #652
grecy wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered about suing the government for raising the retirement age. They're changing the deal we agreed to, without my consent. If I had known the full extent of the altered deal (i.e. no retirement till 69), I would have made different decisions from the start. If I have a 20 year mortgage with the bank I can't just change the terms so that the deal suits me better. Why can the government do that with my…

The government regularly screws people over without their consent. The repercussions is to protest and make the government’s life as miserable as possible.

It's very hard to make someone's life miserable when they're living in the Élysée palace, eating 5k€ breakfasts.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#656

Post by eCa »

kaushikc wrote: post #503
gleenn wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding was that almost all countries with advanced economies are experiencing negative growth in producing children. So even if you are right about the nuance in age, go look at Japan. Their population is shrinking.

If the system is expecting population to grow infinitely and holding everyone to hostage for it then the system needs to change.

> If the system is expecting population to grow infinitely

The system is built on everything growning.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#657

Post by cmehdy »

AYBABTME wrote: post #589
cmehdy wrote: post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

This is all dramatic and very tragic, but the numbers don't make sense. It's not something where passion should win over reason. Current and future generations will be screwed if this pension system isn't reformed. If anything Macron deserves applauses for committing political suicide for the greater good

Nobody is getting screwed if this isn't getting reformed, the central committee dedicated to making projections for retirement funds projected a mild deficit by 2070 in only 1 out of 4 of its scenarios. The government gave this money away to the already rich and is trying to bullshit everybody else that "there's no other way". People have had enough of this behaviour, and the strikes on a scale unseen since 95 show it.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#659

Post by cmehdy »

gruez wrote: post #583
cmehdy wrote: post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

>That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class [...] You say it's "not about the damn numbers", but what does that mean? Does the underlying problem with the numbers not exist? Would the french pension system be fine without such reforms? If not, and reforms are needed, why are is stuff boiling over now? Sure, all the things you listed are legitimate grievances, but…

First off it doesn't need to be done. You're taking a statement from the government as an axiom when it's not one. Secondly, the attitude matters. There is ni trust in the government to not swindle the population, mainly due to Macron's track record and the other mentioned things in my messages. Basically it is not about the numbers, it's about a well crafted narrative led by people who have done everything to wither away the trust given to them, time and time again.
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