French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#51

Post by HideousKojima » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

fvdessen wrote: post #41

yoyohello13 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, much better to leave them to their own devices. Then the state is free to just let those inconvenient poor people die.

The guy you replied to didn't advocate to leave people to their own devices but to have a retirement system that is a healthy mix of different sources of revenue / investments rather than 100% from the state.

And similarly I wasn't saying to not feed poor kids, I was saying that by making it dependent of physical schools it limits the ability of the country to adapt and make changes like remote learning, responding to a pandemic (though I'm doubtful school closures accomplished much if anything in that regard), etc. Flexible ways to accomplish the same or similar goals are preferable to enshrining one specific way of doing so in law.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#52

Post by fvdessen » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

crmd wrote: post #4

A wealth tax (instead of income tax) is the best way to reverse the capital hoarding which is destroying modern society. Go after their assets.

France already has a wealth tax and it is famous for being completely ineffective. Very wealthy people just move away with their wealth to richer countries.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#53

Post by forgetfreeman » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

kwere wrote: post #46

forgetfreeman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"skilled earners" here being a euphemism for inherited wealth oligarchs and trust fund kiddies, or are we pretending wage earing individuals are included in the top 1%?

most income for the state is from income tax, trust fund kids and oligarchs dont have high income tax[0] , and the wealth tax can be easily lowered by tax planning [0] https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-france.pdf

Seems like a fixable problem.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#54

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #2

That's what you get when 60%+ of the wealth generated in the last two years went to the top 1% and you ask the bottom 80% to work two years longer to cover for an imaginary deficit fyi taxing the 40 richest people in France 2% more would cover the same amount of money as having the entire active population work 2 more years. edit: since it's not clear, I'm talking about pension related debt (the main argument of the…

[deleted]

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#55

Post by incrudible » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #42

incrudible wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth was not generated, prices rose. Those are valuations, they did not come out of the pockets of the workers. A wealth tax would suppress those prices, not to mention capital flight. It just does not work. If it did, everyone would do it.

So I pay my gas twice as much as 5 years ago, the dude selling the gas gets twice as much money, but nothing changed ? ok http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27887.jpeg

The gas supply did in fact change, as did demand. Even a small shortage can drive prices up dramatically, because gasoline is critically important.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#56

Post by HideousKojima » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #49

boole1854 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fyi taxing the 40 richest people in France 2% more would cover the same amount of money as having the entire active population work 2 more years. My back-of-the-envelope calculations: Sum of wealth of top 40 richest people in France: 556 billion [1] Annual income of top 40 richest people in France, assuming 10% growth of wealth: 56 billion 2% additional tax on that income: 1 billion Size of active working populatio…

Feel free to contact oxfam: https://www.oxfamfrance.org/rapports/nouveau-rapport-la-loi-...

Where in your link does it say taxing the ultra wealthy would be enough to cover the pension shortfall? I'll give you a hint: nowhere.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#57

Post by fvdessen » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #45

Thlom wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a tiny wealth tax in Norway, so now the richest are moving to Switzerland.

If there’s true political will one can do it, especially if you’re a country as big as France. Let’s say Arnault, the wealthiest French guy, decides to decamp for Switzerland were the French to introduce a wealth tax, then one of the most obvious solutions would be to nationalize his assets with pennies on the dollar, introduce an “emergency societal clause” in the mix to make it more “legal”, and I can assure you th…

Then people don't invest in France as much for fear of having their wealth nationalised and invest in neighbouring countries instead. Then the middle class leaves to the better jobs in the neighbouring countries.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#58

Post by kwere » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #33

kwere wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the poorer parts of society should stop trying to be overeliant on the tax levied on a minority of skilled earners (so no trust fund kids) creating welfarism/populism, breaking the fabric of society (as in ancient Rome),incentivizing emigration/delocalization of taxbase; and try to be more selfsufficient from a budget stanpoint, like having a self-funded pension system, that in France case would be increasin…

Blame and tax the poor, and force them to breed. Nice plans. Perhaps you'd like to start your plan by swooping into France via Belgium.

ironically the leverage that poor people had and have is their children, once upon a time for farming landlords & factory owners, today for government revenues, bcs poor people & middle class pay the most taxes in % as VAT, income tax, fees, contributions, etc... and dont have tax planning while making the welfarism looking remotely sustainable, but with modern demographic trends things are changing for the worse, and with printing money and "eating the rich" as the only policies on the table, we dont solve anything except kicking the can down the road

And for the invading France via Belgium joke, it is hilarious bcs one of the compelling reasons why he started his aggressions in 1939 before the nation was ready was because he emptied German coffers to prop up his Nationalsocialistic welfare system and (he felt he) needed just an imperialistic trip to refill them[0]. the rest is history

[0]https://youtu.be/mLHG4IfYE1w?t=1108

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#59

Post by klyrs » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

MikeTheRocker wrote: post #11

I have no comment on the issue at hand, but I've got to give it to the French for their always impressive level of civil engagement. It feels like Americans are far less willing to take to the streets to support/oppose political causes than they were in times past, and I think that's a shame.

When Americans take to the streets in some states, it's legal to drive through them.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#60

Post by orwin » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #38

lm28469 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about pension related debt, not the entire national debt > Kind of like how at the start of COVID in the US there were arguments like "We can't close down schools because poor kids won't be able to get their free school lunches." You should ask yourself why kids can't get their basic needs such as nutrition covered then...

The pension deficit is 30 billion a year, so seizure of all French billionaires' wealth would still only cover the shortfall for 15 to 20 years.

30 billion a year? Second time I read this, where does it come from? I thought the system was beneficiary in 2021 and 2022? +900M in 2021 and +3B in 2022?

I'd love to find where your information come from, mine is from the Cors (public entity) and from Agirco (private entity). Do you have this information from Facebook?

Edit: full disclosure, I just walked 3 hours, danced in front of the police while holding a sign, so I might have my sources wrong, but I tried to only get them from ddg front page. Didn't see the 30B figure anywhere, I know it's a lie, and I just want to embarrass parent poster for it.