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Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

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Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#31

Post by bradleyland »

bproper wrote: post #28
bradleyland wrote: post #21

Note: please read this all the way through before down/up voting. I'm not defending any actors here, I'm just trying to present an "all sides considered" view of the situation. I think there's a fair amount of "projecting" going on here. More and more, I see the intellectual property discussion being couched in the language of "looters, moochers, and parasites" (aptly borrowing from Ayn Rand). It's undeniable that th…

The shutdown of MegaUpload was the result of an FBI investigation that took place over the last two years. The idea that an international legal case with multiple extradition arrangements was motivated mostly by a music service launched a month ago is hard to swallow and distracts from the serious debate around online piracy and the future of copyright.

I agree. My point is two fold:

A) That we ought to be aware of the genesis of these conspiracy theories. I believe it's based on the influence of objectivist bias (objectivism being common amongst hackers). By human nature, we perceive the world in a way that agrees with our philosophy. For better or worse, that is called bias.

B) That we ought to be singularly focused on the subjects of fair use and free speech.

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#32

Post by ctdonath »

Interesting theory, which fits nicely with this:

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.” ― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

The well-connected didn't want the competition, found a suitable offense, and pulled strings to have the competition shut down on before the pretext was eliminated.

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#34

Post by bradleyland »

roel_v wrote: post #30
bradleyland wrote: post #21

Note: please read this all the way through before down/up voting. I'm not defending any actors here, I'm just trying to present an "all sides considered" view of the situation. I think there's a fair amount of "projecting" going on here. More and more, I see the intellectual property discussion being couched in the language of "looters, moochers, and parasites" (aptly borrowing from Ayn Rand). It's undeniable that th…

"Those with an objectivist viewpoint won't be able to see this scenario in any other way." What? The Objectivist viewpoint is exactly opposite to what you say. Intellectual property is property (Hank Rearden's steel formula was his and his alone, John Galt's engine is his and his ideas are his property) and strong intellectual property rights enforcement are natural rights of their holders, just like ownership of tan…

I should have said "aren't" instead of "won't be". I can't make an argument that this is rent seeking, because I don't believe that it is. I believe, like you, that the MPAA/RIAA are acting in their own interest. Understanding their viewpoint is necessary to hold a productive conversation with them.

>I truly do not understand how you come to the conclusion that under an Objectivist world view, it would be the RIAA/MPAA who are the looters, rather than those who wish to take the intellectual property of others without the creator's consent, and I would be interested in seeing a further developed argument to that effect.

I'm not describing my own view. I'm stating my view of what's driving this theory. It's the framing of this particular theory that has overtones of Atlas Shrugged, in my view. The claim is that the MPAA/RIAA leveraged the government to shut down a potential competitor. This isn't rent seeking by the strict definition, but I never claimed that it was. Rent seeking is only one form of "looter" behavior.

I'd much rather focus on the two fundamental questions. It is not enough to say "we need strong intellectual property laws". That is a very broad statement. We're currently seeing an erosion of fair use, and I think that is a bad thing. We're also seeing an erosion of the protections afforded to the press (whereby "press" includes website operators). I also see this as a bad thing.

I don't want to see website operators acting as enforcers of copyright. That is the government's job. The DMCA already provides the ability for copyright holders to issue take-down notices. Further legislation is pushing the balance too far in favor of rights-holders. I do believe in copyright, and I don't believe "fair use" should include the ability to do what you like with others' work, but website operators ought not be treated as conscripts in the enforcement of intellectual property rights.

EDIT: As I was posting this, someone literally quoted a passage from Atlas Shrugged:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3505458

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#35

Post by wes-exp »

bproper wrote: post #28
bradleyland wrote: post #21

Note: please read this all the way through before down/up voting. I'm not defending any actors here, I'm just trying to present an "all sides considered" view of the situation. I think there's a fair amount of "projecting" going on here. More and more, I see the intellectual property discussion being couched in the language of "looters, moochers, and parasites" (aptly borrowing from Ayn Rand). It's undeniable that th…

The shutdown of MegaUpload was the result of an FBI investigation that took place over the last two years. The idea that an international legal case with multiple extradition arrangements was motivated mostly by a music service launched a month ago is hard to swallow and distracts from the serious debate around online piracy and the future of copyright.

Fully five top DOJ officials are former RIAA lawyers. You think they will treat MegaUpload in a "fair and balanced" way?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/obama-taps-fift/

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#36

Post by redthrowaway »

I've found the following to be of unparalleled utility in evaluating truth claims in journalism:

If the headline ends with a question mark, the answer is "No."

No caveats, no special cases, just "No." If the question asked had half a chance of being true, it would have been stated, not asked.

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#37

Post by FJim »

roel_v wrote: post #30
bradleyland wrote: post #21

Note: please read this all the way through before down/up voting. I'm not defending any actors here, I'm just trying to present an "all sides considered" view of the situation. I think there's a fair amount of "projecting" going on here. More and more, I see the intellectual property discussion being couched in the language of "looters, moochers, and parasites" (aptly borrowing from Ayn Rand). It's undeniable that th…

"Those with an objectivist viewpoint won't be able to see this scenario in any other way." What? The Objectivist viewpoint is exactly opposite to what you say. Intellectual property is property (Hank Rearden's steel formula was his and his alone, John Galt's engine is his and his ideas are his property) and strong intellectual property rights enforcement are natural rights of their holders, just like ownership of tan…

Intellectual property absolutely is rent-seeking. It brings the full weight of government to enforce an artificial monopoly, for the pragmatic end of encouraging the creation of works of art and technological advances.

The idea that one party can prevent another from exploiting a novel idea (which may have been arrived at independently) does not come out of ethics or natural law. It is a (seemingly) useful legal construct which seems to have served us as a society fairly well.

It is perfectly reasonable to challenge the idea, however, if it is no longer serving us. For instance, consider fashion and the law -- two creative industries which have no such protection and within which imitation is a measure of your success.

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#38

Post by _delirium »

redthrowaway wrote: post #36

I've found the following to be of unparalleled utility in evaluating truth claims in journalism: If the headline ends with a question mark, the answer is "No." No caveats, no special cases, just "No." If the question asked had half a chance of being true, it would have been stated, not asked.

Also known as Betteridge's Law of Headlines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridges_Law_of_Headlines

Although sometimes the answer can be "yes", because they phrase the ridiculous insinuation the other way. For example, "Do cellphones kill you?" follows Betteridge's law, but the (actual) CNN headline "Are cell phones safe to use?" asks the same question inverted.

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#39

Post by TheCapn »

bproper wrote: post #28
bradleyland wrote: post #21

Note: please read this all the way through before down/up voting. I'm not defending any actors here, I'm just trying to present an "all sides considered" view of the situation. I think there's a fair amount of "projecting" going on here. More and more, I see the intellectual property discussion being couched in the language of "looters, moochers, and parasites" (aptly borrowing from Ayn Rand). It's undeniable that th…

The shutdown of MegaUpload was the result of an FBI investigation that took place over the last two years. The idea that an international legal case with multiple extradition arrangements was motivated mostly by a music service launched a month ago is hard to swallow and distracts from the serious debate around online piracy and the future of copyright.

Police/investigators don't "schedule" take downs in the same sense that a programmer/manager would schedule a project launch. The FBI wouldn't plan to make the takedown they factor it around multiple situations and a big one is that of future "threat". The police gather evidence long enough until they have an open/shut case against the convicted but should intelligence arise that the suspect is planning a major move that puts people in danger they'll act on what they have and try to make it work in the sense that they'll be protecting others.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but actions by the Mega staff may have triggered such a reaction. Its not unheard of for something "in the works" to trigger the takedown.

Re: Was Megaupload Targeted Because Of Its Upcoming Megabox Digital Jukebox Service?

#40

Post by jeffool »

bradleyland wrote: post #21

Note: please read this all the way through before down/up voting. I'm not defending any actors here, I'm just trying to present an "all sides considered" view of the situation. I think there's a fair amount of "projecting" going on here. More and more, I see the intellectual property discussion being couched in the language of "looters, moochers, and parasites" (aptly borrowing from Ayn Rand). It's undeniable that th…

I wonder if the rights holders filed DMCA takedown notices before trying to get the site taken down? If they did or didn't, would that affect their role, in your estimation?
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