Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment • Hacker News Board

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#131

Post by mouse_ » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:13 AM UTC

twelvechairs wrote: post #23

Replace 'computers' with 'open source software' and you are something closer to an uncomfortable truth. Open source has been critical to the advancement of our world but people who go out of their way to use and encourage open source past the basics (even fdroid or Firefox not even getting to hardware and full software stacks) are treated as oddballs even by the tech community.

Embracing open source and freedom ideologically is very difficult. You can install Firefox, and still feel claustrophobic when you see paid-for default bookmarks and sponsored content everywhere. You can install an open source operating system, but when you learn your system is ACTUALLY running MINIX at the hardware level, which is connected to a 3g chipset listening for updates to do whatever the OEM wants, it all starts to feel like a losing battle.

Let's say you're really determined to have freedom, so you buy a fancy new RISC-V single board computer. Fully open source architecture, bleeding edge stuff. You'll learn quickly the GPU relies on a closed source kernel that the OEM refuses to provide updates for after as little as a year or two, effectively acting as hardware DRM, when your device was supposed to be as free as it gets.

There are many roadblocks in the way of being a free software/open source fanboy.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#132

Post by dusted » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:19 AM UTC

> Solid-state computer components, on the other hand, have no mechanical decay, so they are practically eternal.

This is unfortunately a wrong assumption. Electromigration will kill everything with time. Most chips are designed for a finite lifespan, not in the 100s or 1000s of years, but single digits.. Sure, they last a lot longer, but not forever.

However, the article is still a lovely read!

A lot of it does not seem inverted at all.

> Programming is the most essential element of all computer use

The idea that it is a sacred place, where breathing slows down and thoughts become wholesome.

Indeed, it is the essence of computing.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#133

Post by camtarn » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 9:14 AM UTC

Gordonjcp wrote: post #129

camtarn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me Google that for you: "All electrolytic capacitors with non-solid electrolyte age over time, due to evaporation of the electrolyte. The capacitance usually decreases and the ESR usually increases. The normal lifespan of a non-solid electrolytic capacitor of consumer quality, typically rated at 2000 h/85 °C and operating at 40 °C, is roughly 6 years. It can be more than 10 years for a 1000 h/105 °C capacitor ope…

The electrolyte doesn't evaporate. The "capacitor plague" thing was because in the early 2000s every manufacturer started buying the same kind of cheapest electrolytics they could find that simply did not meet spec. If your electrolytic caps are failing after six years, you're running them at too high a voltage.

From an actual research paper, not just Wikipedia:

"The variation of electrolytic capacitor electrical properties due to ageing can be attributed to two key degradation mechanisms: 1. The evaporation of electrolyte [3, 4, 5] 2. The electrolyte reacting with the insulation material within the electrolytic capacitor [6] A. Evaporation of electrolyte Over time the liquid electrolyte will evaporate, and therefore reduce the amount of available electrolyte within the capacitor."

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/104114/1/IECONv2a.pdf

Yes, the capacitor plague was a particular incident not a general thing; yes, six years seems slightly ridiculous; yes, you can make them last significantly longer; but no, capacitors are not immortal - and you can't make them be immortal by just repeating "no that doesn't happen".

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#134

Post by camtarn » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 9:35 AM UTC

Gordonjcp wrote: post #128

jdiff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electrolytic capacitors can dry out, boil out, oxidize, generally break down. There's many failure modes for them that can be caused by wear, age, or unuse.

Only if they're used grossly outside their rated limits. Whether or not the rated limits printed on the can match what they're actually capable of is another matter, as people found out for a couple of years in the early 2000s.

Here's another study for you, which shows a decrease in capacitance and increase in ESR (equivalent series resistance) of electrolytics operated in a DC-DC converter circuit at room temperature over extended periods of time. This shows that capacitors degrade even when used within their rated limits.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228874152_Experimen...

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#135

Post by hoseja » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 9:40 AM UTC

spiritplumber wrote: post #111

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1: for some reason, the world stops making computers, but keeps the ones that already exist Step 2: 100 years pass Step 3: computers are now an old (and dying) tradition, kept going only by a small group of people who understand how to care for the machines. Was that so hard?

That's just 40k with extra steps

I'd say it's 40k without a whole lot of extra steps.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#136

Post by popotamonga » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 9:46 AM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #83

popotamonga wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My schneider 286@12Mhz from 1990 with 40MB huge hdd still running fine, all original components.

How much of that time has it been running? I would wager that it's not been running powered on for 33 years without any repairs. If it has, probably long past due for a re-cap job, and you probably don't want to put a scope on the voltage rails to see what the ripple is. For a broad handwave, "sitting powered off" isn't too bad for solid state equipment (it does bad things for hard drives, see "stiction"), but operat…

Yes it ran 24/7 when i was a kid for about 4 years, nowadays i rarely turn it on.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#137

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 9:58 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #120

Dylan16807 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that mobile devices lack competent tagging on most things and don't let you organize with folders either. And folders are a very simple concept. If you can't handle them on a system that uses them, that's bad.

>And folders are a very simple concept. If you can't handle them on a system that uses them, that's bad. Simple to us. I've seen accountants, aka people who deal with files and folders as a matter of their god damn line of work, fail to understand or care for files and folders in computers. They still put everything on the desktop. Fact of the matter is people do not care for files-and-folders . It's high time we adm…

Putting things on the desktop or not caring for folders is different from not understanding the concept.

> just want to store everything in one place with an easy one-stop way to find what they want

That's a pipe dream. If you want good search results, then you need to put in organizational effort. Whether or not you're using folders.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#138

Post by PeterisP » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 11:11 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #14

nh23423fefe wrote: post #3

This kind of speculative fiction doesn't work. Usually the template is described as: take some part of the world and tweak it and then press play and see what the world looks like now. Instead this is just "invert some part of culture" which makes no sense. Culture is the emergent externalized collective intelligence of social creatures. You can't invent a culture which would preserve this property without asserting…

Step 1: for some reason, the world stops making computers, but keeps the ones that already exist Step 2: 100 years pass Step 3: computers are now an old (and dying) tradition, kept going only by a small group of people who understand how to care for the machines. Was that so hard?

The issue is with Step 1 - there is some reason why the world chooses to stop using computers despite (as far as I can see in the 'thought experiment') them being available and the homo sapiens needs/desires because of which we use(d) computers seemingly being the same. That reason isn't provided, isn't even implied or hinted to, however it's something major with far-reaching consequences to human behavior.

So it's kind of frustrating - in effect, the author describes a thought experiment of how society would change if X happened, but without saying anything at all about that X other than asserting that one of the things X causes is a mysterious lack of interest in using computers to fill needs/desires which (at least according to the original article) aren't filled by some better alternative.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#139

Post by Dalewyn » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 11:14 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #137

Dalewyn wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And folders are a very simple concept. If you can't handle them on a system that uses them, that's bad. Simple to us. I've seen accountants, aka people who deal with files and folders as a matter of their god damn line of work, fail to understand or care for files and folders in computers. They still put everything on the desktop. Fact of the matter is people do not care for files-and-folders . It's high time we adm…

Putting things on the desktop or not caring for folders is different from not understanding the concept. > just want to store everything in one place with an easy one-stop way to find what they want That's a pipe dream. If you want good search results, then you need to put in organizational effort. Whether or not you're using folders.

>Putting things on the desktop or not caring for folders is different from not understanding the concept.

Yes, but whether they understand or not they still clearly don't care.

>That's a pipe dream. If you want good search results, then you need to put in organizational effort.

The thing is people will not put in effort, whether out of neglect or ignorance. "It's in the 'puter." is as far as most people will care, and operating environments that respect this attitude end up having the widest mainstream appeal and adoption.

It's like manual and automatic transmission in cars. Most people drive their cars to get from A to B, they couldn't give a flying banana how it works. The enthusiasts arguing over stick shift are martians, the people just want a bloody car to get them where they want to be and car manufacturers will and should oblige the people.

Re: Inverted computer culture: A thought experiment

#140

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #139

Dylan16807 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting things on the desktop or not caring for folders is different from not understanding the concept. > just want to store everything in one place with an easy one-stop way to find what they want That's a pipe dream. If you want good search results, then you need to put in organizational effort. Whether or not you're using folders.

>Putting things on the desktop or not caring for folders is different from not understanding the concept. Yes, but whether they understand or not they still clearly don't care. >That's a pipe dream. If you want good search results, then you need to put in organizational effort. The thing is people will not put in effort , whether out of neglect or ignorance. "It's in the 'puter." is as far as most people will care, a…

Automatic transmissions actually do a good and thorough job. File search, if the user hasn't done any sorting at all, will fail a lot. That's why it's a pipe dream. People can always refuse to sort but they won't get the experience they want.