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Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

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Re: Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

#51

Post by CWuestefeld »

david927 wrote: post #43
scottdw2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand. The point is to either eliminate the power, or make it extremely diffuse. That way, there is nothing to purchase.

But that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The wealthiest countries in the world have large governments and don't have these problems. Just outlaw lobbying(bribing) of officials. Outlaw political campaign advertising. Better yet, as I mention above, allow the people to better represent themselves using technology. There are a thousand ways to apply the brakes -- killing the engine is maybe not the best.

The wealthiest countries in the world have large governments

I'm not sure that trying to emulate the [other] wealthiest countries is the best of goals. Doesn't that ensure that we will be, optimally, second best? Given that corruption is endemic everywhere, including those other wealthy countries, isn't it worthwhile to strive for something better?

Outlaw political campaign advertising

That's just another way of saying "Throw out the 1st Amendment and outlaw freedom of speech". That is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

allow the people to better represent themselves using technology.

What makes you think that the electorate as a whole can do any better. Consider the rampant ignorance of the issues in our voting today. And on top of that, most people aren't simply ignorant, but just plain wrong about matters of statistics and economics. I'm inclined to believe that the result would be far worse.

Re: Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

#54

Post by david927 »

scottdw2 wrote: post #40
andrewcooke wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that doesn't solve the real problem, though, which is that some entities are much more powerful than others. by removing the government, which can work as a (limited, imperfect) balance, you give other powerful institutions (ie big corporations) even more power. it won't be the government searching your laptop, it will be the airline, as part of a conglomerate that includes media companies. government exists for a re…

No. Government is force. Airlines, like most businesses, are subject to market forces. If Delta said "we have to search the data on your computer before you can fly", you can choose not to fly. Someone would have a strong incentive to provide a mode of travel that did not involve laptop searches. I didn't say "no government". I said "small government". There's a difference. You need the force of government to protect…

businesses are subject to market forces

Markets are inefficient. Many products and services are inelastic. People will consume them while hating the companies that provide them. It was government, not market forces, that forced companies to stop making kids pajamas out of inflammable material. When people heard that Ford was letting people die in its Pinto rather than recall them because it was cheaper, did people stop buying Ford? I wish it was so simple.

The plain fact is that if you look at the richest countries in the world, with the best standards of living, they have huge governments that provide their citizens with a host of services without profit, such as healthcare.

Re: Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

#57

Post by andrewcooke »

scottdw2 wrote: post #40
andrewcooke wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that doesn't solve the real problem, though, which is that some entities are much more powerful than others. by removing the government, which can work as a (limited, imperfect) balance, you give other powerful institutions (ie big corporations) even more power. it won't be the government searching your laptop, it will be the airline, as part of a conglomerate that includes media companies. government exists for a re…

No. Government is force. Airlines, like most businesses, are subject to market forces. If Delta said "we have to search the data on your computer before you can fly", you can choose not to fly. Someone would have a strong incentive to provide a mode of travel that did not involve laptop searches. I didn't say "no government". I said "small government". There's a difference. You need the force of government to protect…

but in what other way than by reducing its power does making it smaller make it less corruptible?

if a teeny weeny government has power over conglomerates, then it is worth a lot of money, and can be just as corrupt as what we have now. so what you are suggesting doesn't solve the problem. the only way "small" fixes the problem with buying influence is if power is reduced.

Re: Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

#58

Post by draggnar »

jedbrown wrote: post #27
scottdw2 wrote: post #16

I don't think that public funding of elections or free advertising (see the bottom of the page) are the solutions to government corruption. That would just force bribers to be more covert. It's analogous to the fact that SOPA wouldn't stop piracy. It seems to me that the real solution is to dramatically limit the size of government, so that there is nothing to be bought, rather then just changing the currency used to…

If bribery has to be covert, it can be investigated by the legal system. In its current form, bribery is essentially legal. Think about Lessig's suggestion. http://rootstrikers.org http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-december-13-2011/exclu... http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-december-13-2011/exclu... http://lessig.org/content/av/

also his book - http://www.amazon.com/Republic-Lost-Money-Corrupts-Congress-...

Re: Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

#59

Post by llambda »

noonespecial wrote: post #56

The people we really need to be able to get our bribes to are the un-elected, appointed positions like the "czar of this and that". Feature request: Bribes to those in appointed positions for special favors. Thanks.

> Feature request: Bribes to those in appointed positions for special favors. Thanks.

That would constitute a felony.

Re: Show HN: I'm tired of corrupt US politicians, so I created this

#60

Post by davidw »

vectorpush wrote: post #37
scottdw2 wrote: post #16

I don't think that public funding of elections or free advertising (see the bottom of the page) are the solutions to government corruption. That would just force bribers to be more covert. It's analogous to the fact that SOPA wouldn't stop piracy. It seems to me that the real solution is to dramatically limit the size of government, so that there is nothing to be bought, rather then just changing the currency used to…

dramatically limit the size of government Any specifics? "Limit the size of government" is a trite platitude that anyone could agree with on some level. Shove 100 random people in a room and you have 200 conflicting ideas about the appropriate role of government.

Maybe someone should write a bot that replays these tedious discussions, freeing up people to do more productive work.

    M-x libertopians-vs-lefties
Or something like that.
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