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ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

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Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#341

Post by lolinder »

avianlyric wrote: post #252
lolinder wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malicious and lazy compliance are known problems with regulations that should be accounted for in advance. California's prop 65 passed in 1986, so by the time the EU was working on the GDPR they had more than 30 years of precedent for useless warning labels stamped on everything until they lose all meaning. Theoretically websites could choose to do better, but the EU should absolutely have predicted this outcome.

You know that prop 65 warnings don’t exist on products outside the US right? I’ve personally never seen one in the EU.

Duh. I also know that governments can and do pay attention to what other governments are doing and observe the effects. It's much better to learn from someone else's mistakes!

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#342

Post by flir »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #229
ip26 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about harmful tools with no practical uses to the general public? Mortars, tanks, ketamine, ICBM GPS units… You’re taking an absolutist position, so I’d like to explore it.

People are going to bog you down listing all the practical everyday uses for weapons-grade plutonium, but let's try a different tack. Stipulate for sake of argument that there is something dangerous with no beneficial civilian use, so you want to ban it. But there is public demand for the thing, or a lot of people just hate you banning things and will make every effort to thwart you. Sellers split the item into parts…

What's wrong with making manufacture and possession illegal?

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#343

Post by bryanrasmussen »

corbulo wrote: post #103
hourago wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ban social scoring, not the AI, the tool doesn't matter. Automated human classification without recourse nor transparency is what the EU is against. "You cannot get a loan because the AI says so" is not acceptable. > Would it be good if it was computed by hand on paper instead of through AI? Yes. As a judge can check what information was used and what algorithm applied to get to a conclusion. And it may declare tha…

>Automated human classification without recourse nor transparency is what the EU is against. "You cannot get a loan because the AI says so" is not acceptable. The credit score system already in place in the US is frequently as arbitrary in some cases already. You get punished for just looking at it. I don't think I need to preach to HN about that (crypto money and all that). Does Europe do it much differently? Not an…

>The credit score system already in place in the US is frequently as arbitrary in some cases already.

people often think that the problems that pertain to their country are universal, but they would be wrong.

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#344

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

IMTDb wrote: post #287
kelnos wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get punished for just looking at it. Not completely false, but misleading: you get penalized if a lender looks at it with the express purpose of using it to decide whether or not to offer you credit (called a "hard pull"). You looking at your own credit report does not penalize you, and certain other activities (like getting pre-approved for a loan) won't either. The penalty for hard pulls isn't that bad, anywa…

So, GET request not only aren't idempotent but they also affect the party that is read. Who came up with that lovely system ? I gave it roughly 15 seconds of thought and came come up with multiple ways this design fucks up people lives.

A hard-pull is not a GET; it's a POST. The semantics are "this person is actively seeking credit, and we are considering whether to extend it to them". The system regards the extent of credit-seeking behavior, and changes to its pattern, as a factor that affects the credit profile.

That's not prima facie unreasonable. If you have someone who suddenly starts applying for lots of personal loans (for example), that's probably something you'd be interested in, as someone who has previously extended credit to that person.

As the prior poster indicated, when you look at your own credit file, it's not a hard pull. Nor is it a hard pull when a creditor updates their records on you as part of ongoing monitoring of your account. It's only a hard pull when the subject is specifically requesting a new, or increased, extension of credit. Those soft-pulls are GETs.

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#345

Post by anonymousab »

seydor wrote: post #327
starchild_3001 wrote: post #146

GDPR and DMA that came out of EU internet regulators don't impress me. They make it more arduous to browse the web, reduce the revenue collected by open web (content sites), reduce the quality of internet services, lower the quality of ads, hurt user experience, and hurt businesses who're looking to connect with customers. Looks like EU will be doing the same with AI, and risk locking these countries out of the benef…

The EU represents the views of eu citizens. Generally europe is quite technophobic compared to america & asia

Being anti-advertiser is not being technophobic. If anything it's the bog standard expectation for the average person _anywhere_.

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#346

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #216
schrodinger wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly don’t love the system, but the difference is “checking credit score in order to take more credit (eg a loan or credit card)” (hard) vs “checking credit score for my own knowledge” (soft). This distinction feels reasonable to me.

How is it reasonable? Anyone checking your credit score already knows that you're applying for new credit, because you're applying for new credit with them . Dinging your score over that only punishes you for soliciting credit offers from multiple lenders at once so you can choose the best terms. Which ought to be an antitrust violation.

But if you're applying for, and repeatedly being rejected for, extension of credit by third parties that is absolutely something a pre-existing lender would reasonably consider when thinking about risk.

You have to understand that there is a no "credit denied" feedback into the credit rating system. The standard pattern for an approved credit application is a hard-pull followed by the opening of a new tradeline, both of which affect your score. If you're applying for credit, but not being approved, then that just shows up as a hard-pull with no new line.

The FICO score is also set up specifically to ignore additional hard-pulls for the same type of credit within a bounded period; so if you go shopping for a mortgage (or an auto loan, or a student loan), then multiple queries within a 30 day period are coalesced, and only count once from a scoring perspective.

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#347

Post by afpx »

lm28469 wrote: post #280
user249 wrote: post #4

Good. Thanks to the EU I have to click "cookie question" every where I go. Thanks guys for wasting the limited time I have in life.

You should try working in an international company, on the Europe side, and communicate with the US side. You'll quickly learn that what the EU does is very very very good for privacy, I have contacts in a major company and they were shocked at how the US branch operates, they have absolutely no sense of privacy, no anonymisation, no limitation on what is stored or tracked, no consent, &c. they just scrape and store…

We don't have a right to privacy in the US.

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#349

Post by Jataman606 »

TekMol wrote: post #31

Are there any internationally relevant internet companies in Europe? Spotify comes to mind. Then .. I can't think of anything. No search engine. No browser. No operating system. No social network. No ecommerce company. No cloud computing platform. No financial services company. No transportation company. No travel company. No nothing. Except for a $20B music aggregator, there is not a single sector of the web where E…

What regulations block Japan, Korea, Canada and other non-european countries from having this big ecosystem of internet companies?

Re: ChatGPT broke the EU plan to regulate AI

#350

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

fsloth wrote: post #215
corbulo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Automated human classification without recourse nor transparency is what the EU is against. "You cannot get a loan because the AI says so" is not acceptable. The credit score system already in place in the US is frequently as arbitrary in some cases already. You get punished for just looking at it. I don't think I need to preach to HN about that (crypto money and all that). Does Europe do it much differently? Not an…

”Does Europe do it much differently?” Yes (Finland and afaik other nordic countries at least). The lenders use statistics, not individul spying to set their rates.

Uhuh.

https://www.luottotietohaku.fi/?l=en

https://oikeus.fi/talousjavelkaneuvonta/en/index/unnamed3/ba...

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