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Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

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141–150 of 190 posts

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#141

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the A…

You could even get a MicroSD card, stick it in your phone, and carry it across that way.

Stick it in your phone? Your phone is still liable for a search. Get a MicroSD card and stick it in an orifice.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. You could do even better: keep your computer on at all times and keep everything you do in RAM. No encryption is necessary here, just a $100 UPS and your laptop's own battery. The problem with all these comments about "what if I give half of my phrase to a friend?" or "what if I write it in the dust at the entrance to my house and the FBI wipes it away when they bust in?" is that it doesn't really address the c…

They make devices that can safely transfer power from the wall socket to a UPS so that they can take the device with them. Take a look at this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erq4TO_a3z8

Can you not just use a laptop?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#143
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shorter Version: It does not matter whether the government forces you to do something (e.g. open a combination lock), as opposed to providing information (e.g. tell them the combination). The deciding factor is whether there is an invasion of your mental privacy inherent in the government compulsion. Whether you disclose the combination or open the lock yourself, the contents of your mind are being used to incriminat…

In other words if my password is "I am guilty" I can invoke the 5th and tell the grand jury that I will not tell them my password . However, when the grand jury says "produce the crooked accounting books we know you have (witnesses have testified that you have them) that are stores on your laptop", am I required to somehow produce them or do I just say "nope, not going to happen." In the latter case, if those books a…

1 (re: Crooked Account Books) - if the government knows you have accounting books, they can force you to turn them over. You must provide them with physical access to the books. In your example, you could take the hard drive out of your laptop and hand it to them. However, if your hard drive was encrypted, and you had the encryption key memorized, you would not have to tell them. If the judge hearing your case did not understand the intricacies of Fifth Amendment doctrine, like the judge in this case, he might order you to decrypt the hard drive. In this case, your lawyer would ask the judge to stay (i.e., delay) his order to give you a chance for interlocutory appeal.

If the judge did not grant the stay, you could turn over the key but explain that you were not waiving your Fifth Amendment rights. Then when you were found guilty, you could appeal, argue that your Fifth Amendment rights were violated, and get your conviction overturned. Alternatively, you could not turn over the key, go to jail for contempt, and wait for your lawyer to appeal the contempt finding and get you out of jail.

2 (re: password vs. physical key in secret place) - in some cases, the act of producing a physical key may actually be protected under the Fifth Amendment. If the police can show that you know the key's location, then by forcing you to produce the key they are not forcing you to give any testimony, and you have no Fifth Amendment protection. However, if they ask you for a key but can't prove that you have it, they are asking you to create implicit testimony. The implicit testimony is "I know where the key is." If this testimony would end up incriminating you, the it is protected by the Fifth Amendment and you don't have to produce the key.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#144

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the A…

This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions.

Any lawyers want to comment on this ?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#145

What if she can't remember the pass phrase? Of course, she could be lying, but how could they prove that?

They can apply various methods, such as polygraph to determine whether she really forgot the key, and it won't be so easy for her to avoid revealing the real fact.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#147
post #137
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure there's an even better way to accomplish something similar that I'm not thinking of One example is what TrueCrypt calls plausible deniability. Your drive has an encrypted volume which initially appears to be completely random data (like all well-encrypted data). You have two decryption keys: an "innocent one" and the "real one." If asked or compelled to decrypt your drive, you decrypt it with the innocent…

TrueCrypt's deniability was broken in 2008. I'm not sure if they fixed it since then.

>> TrueCrypt's deniability was broken in 2008.

Citation?

>> I'm not sure if they fixed it since then.

Maybe you could find out and post something useful.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#148

You can be compelled to produce a physical key to a safe. However what if the contents of the safe are paper with text written in an invented language, known only to you? Can you be compelled to translate them for the court? What if they just contained numbers? Could you be forced to explain what the numbers mean? I would conclude that such an action would violate the 5th ammendment. Forcing her to decrypt the hard d…

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't entropy in an information source mean there's _more_ information rather than less ?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#149
I used to think of moving to USA. I'm a pretty good programmer and it would've been nice to work in an American startup. When reading these news, about SOPA/PIPA, about the crazy amount of spying and control in the airports, about forcing to decrypt my laptop, I don't want to go there even for a holiday anymore. I'm happy here in Berlin and even though the salaries are half what I would get from Silicon Valley, the cost of living is also much lower.

And I'm not alone.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#150
post #145

What if she can't remember the pass phrase? Of course, she could be lying, but how could they prove that?

They can apply various methods, such as polygraph to determine whether she really forgot the key, and it won't be so easy for her to avoid revealing the real fact.

Polygraphs are considered reliable? In the UK they are inadmissible in court.
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