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Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

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Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#131

Post by tedunangst »

burgerbrain wrote: post #124
andylei wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do people here honestly believe that its not okay for cops with warrants to search someone's encrypted hard drive because they might find something that's not illegal?

It is never okay for my privacy to be compromised. I don't care if they have a piece of paper that says that I'm not supposed to care. This has nothing to do with things that may or may not be "illegal".

How do you propose police execute a search warrant in someone's house? Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#132

Post by tedunangst »

WalterBright wrote: post #68
andylei wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do people here honestly believe that its not okay for cops with warrants to search someone's encrypted hard drive because they might find something that's not illegal?

Many people have secrets that, if disclosed, could ruin their lives even though they are not illegal. For example, a politician with politically unacceptable activities. I'm sure you can come up with examples, such are regularly reported on the news.

How is that different from finding naughty stuff in the closet while searching for the murder weapon?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#133

Post by baddox »

nirvana wrote: post #60

I wonder about this: What if the key to the encryption is written on a dozen seemingly random notes on yellow sticky notes in your office full of yellow sticky notes? Or, it is composed of the last letter on each page of a series of innocuous looking documents, such that the government might seize the documents but naturally in the process of doing so, scramble the documents order rendering the password irretrievable…

> I'm sure there's an even better way to accomplish something similar that I'm not thinking of

One example is what TrueCrypt calls plausible deniability. Your drive has an encrypted volume which initially appears to be completely random data (like all well-encrypted data). You have two decryption keys: an "innocent one" and the "real one." If asked or compelled to decrypt your drive, you decrypt it with the innocent one, and it becomes something innocent (like a bare operating system with no personal info). Obviously, the "real key" reveals your real operating system which you actually use, and thus contains personal information.

The kicker is, without the real key, not only can they not see your personal information, but it's physically impossible to even prove that there's another key which decrypts different data on the drive.

http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=plausible-deniability

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#134

Post by baddox »

IgorPartola wrote: post #115
trotsky wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, it's very common for forensics teams to get memory dumps before the computers are turned off or moved.

No problem. With enough money you could set up a dead man switch to erase your laptop if you step more than 3 feet away from it which is bound to happen if the FBI drags you away. Or set up a voice recognition system that would listen for the words "Open up! Police!". My point is that with all these amateur lawyer "I can outsmart them on a technicality" schemes I think it needs to be said that you probably don't want…

You can also just, you know, refuse to decrypt the drive. If they're going to torture you, you're pretty much screwed anyway so you probably don't care about the data (unless perhaps it contains crucial private information about friends and family, or business dealings).

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#135

Post by tedunangst »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #82

What if you made your passphrase itself a confession to a crime? "I shot the sheriff." Then you could claim that supplying your password would constitute self-incrimination, and so you'd like to invoke your 5th Amendment rights :)

What if you read the article?

"Prosecutors in this case have stressed that they don't actually require the passphrase itself"

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#136

Post by burgerbrain »

tedunangst wrote: post #131
burgerbrain wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is never okay for my privacy to be compromised. I don't care if they have a piece of paper that says that I'm not supposed to care. This has nothing to do with things that may or may not be "illegal".

How do you propose police execute a search warrant in someone's house? Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?

"Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?"

The only circumstance is with my consent.

Unfortunately I cannot prevent physical intrusions. When it comes to security of data however thankfully things have been improving.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#137

Post by rorrr »

baddox wrote: post #133
nirvana wrote: post #60

I wonder about this: What if the key to the encryption is written on a dozen seemingly random notes on yellow sticky notes in your office full of yellow sticky notes? Or, it is composed of the last letter on each page of a series of innocuous looking documents, such that the government might seize the documents but naturally in the process of doing so, scramble the documents order rendering the password irretrievable…

> I'm sure there's an even better way to accomplish something similar that I'm not thinking of One example is what TrueCrypt calls plausible deniability. Your drive has an encrypted volume which initially appears to be completely random data (like all well-encrypted data). You have two decryption keys: an "innocent one" and the "real one." If asked or compelled to decrypt your drive, you decrypt it with the innocent…

TrueCrypt's deniability was broken in 2008. I'm not sure if they fixed it since then.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#138

Post by rdtsc »

nirvana wrote: post #60

I wonder about this: What if the key to the encryption is written on a dozen seemingly random notes on yellow sticky notes in your office full of yellow sticky notes? Or, it is composed of the last letter on each page of a series of innocuous looking documents, such that the government might seize the documents but naturally in the process of doing so, scramble the documents order rendering the password irretrievable…

> the data is impossible to decrypt.

In fact that is exactly what defense is saying would be the next argument coming from them.

One can claim they forgot the password. The judge might not believe them, so they can just slap contempt of court charges one after another? What the person has actually forgot the password? How can they prove that they forgot something.

> Then in court you can testify honestly to exactly how you looked up the phrase, but the government would have no way to recreate it.

Not a bad idea in theory. However if the judge/jury can be convinced that you set up your password retrieving system specifically so that a search would destroy the password, they can still slap obstruction and contempt charges on you. I think that is the problem -- inability to convince the judge that you can't decrypt vs that you don't want to....

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#139

Post by jangusa »

evgen wrote: post #129
dedward wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isnt the simple point of the 5th supposed to be more or,ess "you do cannot be compelled bylaw to help convict yourself)... ay law to the contrary would be unconstitutional.

No, the point of the 5th is that you cannot be compelled to give testimony against yourself (which is under oath and for which you will go to jail if you perjure yourself.) You are not protected from helping to convict yourself if you leave the evidence of your crimes available to the court. An encrypted drive is being considered as something like an un-crackable safe for which you have the combination; providing the…

Providing the password to a safe that contains incriminating documents actually is testimonial in nature because it requires you to disclose information you have in your mind (see above). As such, any information that the government obtains by compelling you to give them the password cannot be used against you in a criminal trial. The judge in the case being discussed here got it wrong, and his decision will be overturned on appeal if it goes up to the Supreme Court.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#140

Post by rorrr »

pi18n wrote: post #87
scottdw2 wrote: post #58

You can be compelled to produce a physical key to a safe. However what if the contents of the safe are paper with text written in an invented language, known only to you? Can you be compelled to translate them for the court? What if they just contained numbers? Could you be forced to explain what the numbers mean? I would conclude that such an action would violate the 5th ammendment. Forcing her to decrypt the hard d…

I agree and so do past rulings. This judge needs brush up on US law.

There were all kinds of rulings, and it has never reached the Supreme Court. So until then, a judge can lock you up indefinitely, until you produce the password.
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