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The incompatibility of open core and profit

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Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#71
The fundamental friction here is that a lot of software has a short shelf life in terms of value. But it still needs to be maintained. And you can't really build new software without relying on a lot of commodity but low value software. Most software that gets shipped these days is largely open source. Even the likes of Apple, MS, Oracle, etc. that sell a lot of proprietary software use and depend on a lot of open source components.

That's why the world runs on open source software. It's the cheapest way to share the responsibility of this common core of software. The only way really. Doing everything in house is stupidly expensive. Where open core companies fail is in attempting to monopolize their core of software. It's all the downsides of open (people copy your stuff) but without the upsides (you do all the work, at great expense). And by trying to mitigate the downsides, they actually make the problem worse.

The problem with open source companies is that most of their software rapidly loses its value after they start exploiting it. The type of open source company that insists on restrictive licensing (e.g. AGPL) and transfers of copyright tend to fail to create a software community around their stacks that would make them long term successful. That doesn't mean open source is bad for business, but just that that particular style of doing business isn't great. You throw out the baby with the bathwater. You incentivize your users to find (or worse build) alternative solutions. Basically, such companies being successful merely creates the financial incentive for others to do similar things. Launching such companies is easy with VC capital. Keeping them long term relevant and profitable isn't because inevitably a cheaper, more open competitor emerges.

That's why e.g. the Apache licensed ecosystem is highly successful. It regularly spawns new companies and they build on each other's success. And they end up sharing a lot of code. Which then becomes a shared commodity. Such is the nature of software. VCs don't like this because this doesn't produce a whole lot of ridiculously profitable unicorns. But it does create a lot of value. And there is plenty of money that can be made by developers working on such software. Which is why there is so much of it. OSS isn't charity mostly and there are a lot of well paid developers working on it.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#72
The deeper incompatibility is between open-core and non-profit.

There's a sort of "embrace, extend, extinguish" type of rivalry between the open elements and that which is closed.

You generally end up with fairly vital or significant functionality that gets excluded from the core version.

I think that the most viable way to make a profit is probably from support and consulting around an upstreamed enterprise edition of the software - but even then, something needs to be done to stop the big fish from eating your lunch.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#73
This is maybe one of the most important discussions we could have today and kudos for the bold contribution. So many existing and future risks and opportunities we face are strongly coupled with digitization and choices on how software is developed and used matter a lot to what sort of world is emerging.

This widespread relevance of software is part of the problem: the scope is so wide it spans an enormous range of needs and business models. Given that the financial system itself is becoming almosy fully a digital artifact it is a legitimate question whether e.g., money itself should be "open source"? Whatever one thinks about the cryptobro universe, that proposition cannot be unseen. If money itself is up for redesign (and if you follow the so-called CBDC discussion that is very much the case), what is ultimately our objective? What legally defined organizational structures are available and how do they incentivise delivering on the objective?

The other part of the problem is that it by far not just about source code. Actually nobody has any use for code in pure isolation. The value proposition is always somehow coupled with data and code coming to life so to speak by operating on data. Whether open data or private data. Which opens yet another can of worms around privacy, commercial secrecy, copyright, IP etc.

My humble punchline is that the open source journey is neither easy nor simple and it will get even messier. But the general principle of "doing well by doing good" is valid, it is what binds us all and the alternative is almost certainly a dystopia.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#74
Open core makes sense to simplify the sales funnel, especially in areas with a strong open-source culture. Most data engineers are quite skeptical towards closed-source software, so packaging something as open-source makes it easy for people to interact with it. Then, if companies already use the tool it's often an easy pitch to sell the enterprise version. Look at Hashicorp for example, people invest hundreds or thousands of hours writing Terraform configs, so when the company finally feels the pain of managing it at scale the decision to upgrade to an enterprise plan is a no-brainer, as otherwise you'd have to either write the functionality yourself or abandon all your existing work and start over with a different system.

So the value of open-core is that companies can get locked into a product without knowning it and without you doing any real sales effort. And when the time comes to sell the enterprise edition you'll have lots of champions within the company that navigate the most difficult aspects of the sales process for your (i.e. identify the decision makers, pitch to them, get management onboard). If you can make this work it's like magic. The other risk is of course that you'll make your open-source version too useful so companies will rarely upgrade, or that someone will just snatch up your work and build their own stuff on top, though that seems less relevant.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#75
post #52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been thinking about this problem a lot, since I'm trying to figure out how to sustain our open source project. It’s worrying, and maybe telling, that you don’t mention whom the project benefits . Who are the people who want this project to exist? Those are the people who would be willing to pay to ensure its continued existence and maintenance. Exactly what form that takes is mostly psychological, and will the…

> It’s worrying, and maybe telling, that you don’t mention whom the project benefits. I was trying to avoid talking about the specifics of the project (I didn't want to come across as self-promotional). We only did our first release this week, so no one is invested in the project (yet). We have hypotheses about who it benefits but haven't had enough time to test them. Our current goal is to build a user base and that…

> no one is invested in the project (yet). We have hypotheses about who it benefits but haven't had enough time to test them.

You mean to say you built an entire project, large enough to need “a few full-time people” to maintain it, without ever getting feedback from actual users? Chance alone almost guarantees that you built the wrong thing and nobody will want to use it.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#76
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re called “IBM” now.

They wouldn't have gotten acquired by IBM if they couldn't make a profit.

IBM could use the Red Hat Enterprise customer base to sell consulting services to. If the projected profits from consulting is large enough, no profits from Red Hat is needed.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People exist who do open source for a living outside the open core bubble. Take a listen to this video [0] from Paul Ramsey who has built a successful career working on PostGIS (database for geospatial information). It covers his thoughts on the future of open source (spoiler: its not open core). [0] http://blog.cleverelephant.ca/2019/05/foss4g-keynote-2019.ht...

TLDR?

Attempt at a summary (a very good talk!): 1. Open source produces immense value and ironically locks itself out of capturing the value. In the last 20 years, open source has become the oxygen of software development. Cloud providers do what proprietary software vendors did 20 years ago.

2. "IP is free, support for $$" like Red hat is a viable business model but captures only a very small part of the overall value. The much larger part is captured by private sector selling SaaS, Cloud infra vendors. Software has become a commodity, it is user-facing services that capture value today.

3. The value capturing works fine for the companies but little to nothing of that value flows back to the people who write or maintain the software. This needs to be overcome. Openness is important but we need to value it, and governments as biggest buyers of services play a role. If we valued openness more consequently, it would lead to more opportunities for open source developers to capture value by offering user-facing services.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#78
post #69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Open core companies tend to lean into "we'll figure out how to monetize later" which inherently means it's harder to trust what they say now because their incentives are guaranteed to shift towards monetization eventually. How is this guaranteed? If the OSS product is truly core to the business, the incentive will always be to make it as best as possible, which will benefit both OSS users and commercial customers.…

> I can name countless products that have done this right, yet can't think of any that haven't. Can you mention some? Your article lists a few along with their funding data, as if this is somehow inherently a bad thing. Elsewhere in the thread there are a couple examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35026270 I think part of the problem is that once you rely on premium tier features like LDAP, you're hooked a…

Nagware and price gouging are not problems exclusive to the open core model, though, so it's unfair to criticize it as being responsible for this. Especially when the proposed alternatives in the article offer much less benefits to the user.

> I think part of the problem is that once you rely on premium tier features like LDAP, you're hooked and now the fact that it's open core has about zero relevance to you.

For a product like Mattermost, I can see how LDAP is a premium tier feature. If you're using OSS products in an enterprise environment, you can surely afford to support its development, so I don't see how you're on the hook in any way. Your support is making the software available to users who don't need or can't afford these features, which is a net positive. Besides, it gives you the freedoms to modify the software in any way that suits you, which you wouldn't get by paying for a proprietary product. If a certain feature is so important to you, and you refuse to pay the original developers for it, you can always choose to develop it internally for yourself, as that user's company did.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#79
>>From my perspective, blindly rallying behind a business with an open core business model is a recipe for disaster that may lead to future disappointment and failure.

Interestingly the mental thoughts of each party affects the outcome. i.e. Let's say until now 90% of open source projects were fully truly open. Once a large percent say 40%+ are open core as a trick to lure users into a later high cost trap. At some point users will become wise to the trick and open-core will no longer have marketing value. It's similar to food adverts saying "no added sugar", I actually take it as a negative and assume they have a lot of natural sugar or have added something else e.g. salt/fat.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#80
I know this seems unrealistic, but rather than change how Open Source works, maybe we should change the rest of society to work more like Open Source?

It could be argued that if 'software is eating the world' and the software is Open Source, then maybe we're heading towards an Open Source world?

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