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The incompatibility of open core and profit

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Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#61
I'm starting a startup, and our model will be similar, but not properly open core.

We will have a fully open source library and a source-available server which will be closer to "open source, but you pay for more than 100 accounts. After X years, agpl". This can't be open source because it breaks the definition on free redistribution and no discrimination.

This will require us to create a new license, but while I believe in open source, offering only support is not sustainable, and we have seen too many companies basically stealing the work of others and not giving back anything.

Yes, there are developers and even companies sustained not by the code itself, but they are a drop in the ocean of normal companies for multiple reasons.

Our license is still in development (we don't even have a demo yet), but if anyone knows of discussions on the subject, any idea, any pointer is appreciated.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> until more people actually get adequately paid for making open-source, open core should not only be tolerated but encouraged Come on, did you actually read the article or skim the first paragraphs? The authors point is that open core is not a model that enables small time developers to fund their projects. …it’s a deceptive, deliberate marketing strategy funded by venture capital to run a loss leader and capture ma…

The author almost unravels their own argument at the end: > I just believe that more businesses can find ways to make open source contributions core to their business, without resorting to the typical open core strategy. There’s a lot of nuance in creating better aligned incentives. Their problem really is just with _this particular behavioral pattern of VC-raising startups whose software is open-core_, which is why…

>Their problem really is just with _this particular behavioral pattern of VC-raising startups whose software is open-core_, which is why they criticize "The Open Core Strategy". They are not against open-core in itself, just that it is incompatible with the profit incentives these companies have

100%. I want more people to figure out ways to make open source work with the business model. Typical open core tends to end up in a situation where you're serving two masters, but one pays you. Which one would you rather work for?

>it sounds like you either can't execute low code templates offline, or can't fork the project without recreating both the UI and the execution logic, both of which seem to violate the spirit of free software.

Must have been poorly worded then. Our low-code templates are just visual wrappers around Python CLIs that contain no proprietary platform logic. You don't need our UI to run them locally.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#63

Open core is the only way to really monetize open-source software. You see this issue with core-js, you see it with mold linker, which went "open core" in a desperate attempt to get more funding. At the end of the day we must remember that people need to make money and most simply don't have the time or desire to make open-source for free. And until more people actually get adequately paid for making open-source, ope…

> Open core is the only way to really monetize open-source software.

Red Hat has built a business on free software without resorting to open core. Why can't anyone else (according to you)?

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#64
post #53

The author is the CEO of one of the companies they say has the solution to this "problem". I guess they technically say that in a footnote, but it's pretty far below the fold. How can you criticize hosted cloud services for maybe not being open source enough, but then suggest closed source services with an open source interface as somehow being a better alternative? How can you criticize dual licensing, but then sugg…

Just want to clarify - I do not think we have the solution to this problem nor do I claim that cloud services are not open source enough. Rather, I decided to take one (of many) possible avenues that I believe is more upfront and honest about our relationship with open source that directly aligns with our business incentives. The difference to me is honesty and intent from the outset. Open core companies tend to lean…

After thinking some more, if what you're saying mostly boils down to "there are serious issues with open core cloud offerings" then I agree.

I work on embedded products, so for my purposes open core usually means "you're getting free beer, but you might not get free updates". We've also paid for commercial licenses of dual-licensed projects and I think that model works pretty well.

Once we're talking about services, if you're not willing or able to operate the service yourself (at the scale you need...) then the open core seems pretty useless as a check on the company's ability to squeeze you for more cash.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem to me like explicitly commercial services solve those problems. Just because a closed source service has a pricing model I accept as fair today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow. But I guess there's something to be said that there was never any pretense otherwise.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author almost unravels their own argument at the end: > I just believe that more businesses can find ways to make open source contributions core to their business, without resorting to the typical open core strategy. There’s a lot of nuance in creating better aligned incentives. Their problem really is just with _this particular behavioral pattern of VC-raising startups whose software is open-core_, which is why…

>Their problem really is just with _this particular behavioral pattern of VC-raising startups whose software is open-core_, which is why they criticize "The Open Core Strategy". They are not against open-core in itself, just that it is incompatible with the profit incentives these companies have 100%. I want more people to figure out ways to make open source work with the business model. Typical open core tends to en…

I fear the end game of a fully propieatary software world is that the only real way people interact with computers is app stores, programming is not something people can learn online anymore (but it used to). not even command line, just app stores. the new "hello world" in this dystopia is "go to app store, buy hello world the app, done".

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#66
post #53

The author is the CEO of one of the companies they say has the solution to this "problem". I guess they technically say that in a footnote, but it's pretty far below the fold. How can you criticize hosted cloud services for maybe not being open source enough, but then suggest closed source services with an open source interface as somehow being a better alternative? How can you criticize dual licensing, but then sugg…

Just want to clarify - I do not think we have the solution to this problem nor do I claim that cloud services are not open source enough. Rather, I decided to take one (of many) possible avenues that I believe is more upfront and honest about our relationship with open source that directly aligns with our business incentives. The difference to me is honesty and intent from the outset. Open core companies tend to lean…

> Open core companies tend to lean into "we'll figure out how to monetize later" which inherently means it's harder to trust what they say now because their incentives are guaranteed to shift towards monetization eventually.

How is this guaranteed? If the OSS product is truly core to the business, the incentive will always be to make it as best as possible, which will benefit both OSS users and commercial customers.

This "shift towards monetization" either doesn't happen, or if it does, has no negative effect for OSS users, who will only benefit from the company having more resources to invest in growing the team, more frequent updates, better support, etc.

I can name countless products that have done this right, yet can't think of any that haven't. Can you mention some? Your article lists a few along with their funding data, as if this is somehow inherently a bad thing.

Chances are that companies that did this wrongly had much larger problems, and took advantage of their users in other ways as well. This isn't an issue with the open core model, but with these companies.

> The other models bake in monetization from the start, so you know what you're getting into when you start using the product.

The thing is that none of the alternatives you propose have any benefits for the user. They're either not free software (source available), the OSS component is not standalone and is intrinsically tied to a proprietary service, which serves more like a commercial hook, or the OSS components are noncritical to the business, which doesn't incentivize maintenance.

This is a very opportunistic view of OSS, and is no better than companies that do open core wrongly.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#67

Open Core basically means try-before-you-buy. That is a great deal for the customer, they will know for free whether they can actually benefit from the product. If they can it means it brings them monetary value. If they get "hooked" into that monetary value, it is not a problem. It is good that people realize Open Core is part of marketing not some highly ethical save the rainforests project. If they are companies t…

I disagree that open core is just marketing or OSS shareware.

When done correctly, it offers a fully functional, featureful and standalone product most users can benefit from. Only specific noncritical features, meant for advanced or corporate users, are offered commercially.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to clarify - I do not think we have the solution to this problem nor do I claim that cloud services are not open source enough. Rather, I decided to take one (of many) possible avenues that I believe is more upfront and honest about our relationship with open source that directly aligns with our business incentives. The difference to me is honesty and intent from the outset. Open core companies tend to lean…

> Open core companies tend to lean into "we'll figure out how to monetize later" which inherently means it's harder to trust what they say now because their incentives are guaranteed to shift towards monetization eventually. How is this guaranteed? If the OSS product is truly core to the business, the incentive will always be to make it as best as possible, which will benefit both OSS users and commercial customers.…

> I can name countless products that have done this right, yet can't think of any that haven't. Can you mention some? Your article lists a few along with their funding data, as if this is somehow inherently a bad thing.

Elsewhere in the thread there are a couple examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35026270

I think part of the problem is that once you rely on premium tier features like LDAP, you're hooked and now the fact that it's open core has about zero relevance to you.

Although it still has some relevance. A child comment on that link I posted talks about going back to the open core by using an oauth workaround for LDAP. So it does seem like the open core might be worth something.

Re: The incompatibility of open core and profit

#70

Open core is the only way to really monetize open-source software. You see this issue with core-js, you see it with mold linker, which went "open core" in a desperate attempt to get more funding. At the end of the day we must remember that people need to make money and most simply don't have the time or desire to make open-source for free. And until more people actually get adequately paid for making open-source, ope…

People exist who do open source for a living outside the open core bubble. Take a listen to this video [0] from Paul Ramsey who has built a successful career working on PostGIS (database for geospatial information). It covers his thoughts on the future of open source (spoiler: its not open core). [0] http://blog.cleverelephant.ca/2019/05/foss4g-keynote-2019.ht...

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