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Continuous growth is cancer

christianheilmann.com

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Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#41

Post by kilgnad »

corbulo wrote: post #29

Continuous growth is necessary to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If there cannot be continuous growth, who becomes the arbiter of human potential? People who call growth cancer? You can't be serious.

Growth itself is not cancer. Growth that never ends is cancer, because it eventually consumes all available resources in the system. I mean this is raw inescapable logic, there's no argument against this.

There's an alternative way. A simpler life. The term for it is called equilibrium. It's not a bad way of life.

It's very hollywoody but essentially the movie Avatar is sort of a window the essential nature of what a life of equilibrium is.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#42

Post by germinalphrase »

kilgnad wrote: post #35
roenxi wrote: post #7

I'd challenge the idea that this is unsustainable because of the specific system. Entropy and resource limits mean whatever we do is unsustainable under any system as far as we tell, both theoretically and in practical timespans. Nobody seems to have an argument for where the physical resources will come from, or how we deal with exponential population growth without just having regular famines (even worse than losin…

>Life looks a lot like cancer. Cancer looks a lot like life. "Being cancer" isn't a bad thing, cancer is only bad when it is a disease in humans. Otherwise it is the way of the world. We are surrounded by patterns that propagate themselves quickly. You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand. First off most energy on earth com…

“I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand.”

A new HN catchphrase.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#43

Post by luckylion »

deafpolygon wrote: post #28

Says growth is bad, layoff sucks, then: > If you agree and you’re looking for a technical lead in your company, “check me out on LinkedIn” I mean, what company is gonna want to hire someone who thinks growth and expansion is bad.

He only thinks growth and expansion are bad when he got laid off. He doesn't have an issue with growth and expansion when it results in steady promotions, pay raises and generally an income that's far beyond the average thanks to his role being in demand and the evil forces of capitalism (which drive growth, which is bad!) are in effect.

It's an emotional reaction, so I don't think any company should be too concerned about it. When he gets hired again, his emotional state will change and he'll reconsider and land on "maybe growth isn't so bad".

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#44

Post by roenxi »

kilgnad wrote: post #35
roenxi wrote: post #7

I'd challenge the idea that this is unsustainable because of the specific system. Entropy and resource limits mean whatever we do is unsustainable under any system as far as we tell, both theoretically and in practical timespans. Nobody seems to have an argument for where the physical resources will come from, or how we deal with exponential population growth without just having regular famines (even worse than losin…

>Life looks a lot like cancer. Cancer looks a lot like life. "Being cancer" isn't a bad thing, cancer is only bad when it is a disease in humans. Otherwise it is the way of the world. We are surrounded by patterns that propagate themselves quickly. You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand. First off most energy on earth com…

> For example you may have deer keeping the population of grass in check and wolves keeping the population of deer in check in such a way that no population ever gets out of control.

Both populations can get completely out of control in a wildly chaotic dance with some pretty standard conditions. You might enjoy reading up on the logistic map [0]. True equilibrium is quite rare in nature, usually situations are chaotic.

People like to pretend the world is stable but the evidence really only says 'predictably chaotic'.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#45

Post by number6 »

germinalphrase wrote: post #42
kilgnad wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Life looks a lot like cancer. Cancer looks a lot like life. "Being cancer" isn't a bad thing, cancer is only bad when it is a disease in humans. Otherwise it is the way of the world. We are surrounded by patterns that propagate themselves quickly. You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand. First off most energy on earth com…

“I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand.” A new HN catchphrase.

I like how the phrase shift the guilt to the reader if he does not understand.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#46

Post by kilgnad »

roenxi wrote: post #44
kilgnad wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Life looks a lot like cancer. Cancer looks a lot like life. "Being cancer" isn't a bad thing, cancer is only bad when it is a disease in humans. Otherwise it is the way of the world. We are surrounded by patterns that propagate themselves quickly. You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand. First off most energy on earth com…

> For example you may have deer keeping the population of grass in check and wolves keeping the population of deer in check in such a way that no population ever gets out of control. Both populations can get completely out of control in a wildly chaotic dance with some pretty standard conditions. You might enjoy reading up on the logistic map [0]. True equilibrium is quite rare in nature, usually situations are chaot…

It's not true true equilibrium, it oscillates around an equilibrium. You can call it an equilibrium zone.

Within this zone you can get chaotic changes, but what you don't usually get is complete destruction and extinction as you do when you get an invasive species.

It's impossible actually for things to be incredibly chaotic in the sense that they always overload. If this occured all the time you'd never form a sustainable ecosystem. Life would've died out quickly.

Essentially Your chaos equation doesn't account for natural selection. This is the factor that holds things in equilibrium.

So what you see is sort of a bunch of systems in an evolutionary arms race where each side is in a very stable equilibrium stalemate despite the fact that both sides are continuously evolving counter measures and new strategies.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#47

Post by mandmandam »

roenxi wrote: post #44
kilgnad wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Life looks a lot like cancer. Cancer looks a lot like life. "Being cancer" isn't a bad thing, cancer is only bad when it is a disease in humans. Otherwise it is the way of the world. We are surrounded by patterns that propagate themselves quickly. You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand. First off most energy on earth com…

> For example you may have deer keeping the population of grass in check and wolves keeping the population of deer in check in such a way that no population ever gets out of control. Both populations can get completely out of control in a wildly chaotic dance with some pretty standard conditions. You might enjoy reading up on the logistic map [0]. True equilibrium is quite rare in nature, usually situations are chaot…

[dead]

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#48

Post by corbulo »

wizofaus wrote: post #40
corbulo wrote: post #29

Continuous growth is necessary to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If there cannot be continuous growth, who becomes the arbiter of human potential? People who call growth cancer? You can't be serious.

Future generations also deserve life liberty and the opportunity to pursue happiness and fulfill their potential surely. The issue would not so much seem to be "continuous" growth but unfettered growth (as per a narrow set of metrics) now that potentially destroys the chances of our children and grand children enjoying the benefits of that growth. If it's necessary to make decisions to dampen (or even suspend) growth…

Who should be the authority on good growth vs. bad growth? Should this extend to caps on individual wealth aswell?

Who should decide how rich people can get AND how much growth can happen? Seems like you're just changing masters.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#50

Post by waffletower »

“I´d like to share a revelation that I´ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that you’re not actually mammals.

Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way can survive is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus.

Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You’re a plague and we… are the cure.” Agent Smith.

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