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EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

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Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#591

Post by 988747 »

dmitriid wrote: post #216
988747 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except EU is not a single market: there's 27 countries, speaking multiple languages, having different laws, so to serve the EU you need at least a dozen versions of your app. Also, EU has just decided that this half billion of consumers will be downgraded to the third world standard of living (google "Fit for 55"), so they won't really have much money to spend on tech toys anyway...

> EU has just decided that this half billion of consumers will be downgraded to the third world standard of living (google "Fit for 55") "Fit for 55 is a package by the European Union designed to reduce the European Union's greenhouse gas emissions by 55% by 2030." I call bullshit on your statement.

The only way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 55% is to push everyone into poverty, basically. Make the car ownership too expensive for common folks, as well as meat consumption, buying new clothes, heating your apartment in winter, air travel, and more.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#592

Post by hedora »

dcow wrote: post #472
hedora wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the security coprocessor on every iPhone and Mac runs a formally verified operating system that manages the at-rest encrypted messages. Also, all software running on the phone is vetted before being allowed to hit consumer devices, which adds an extra level of security between malicious developers and kernel APIs. There's no way Android will support that stuff across its entire ecosystem, so I guess it means th…

1. I don't think "formally verified" means what you want it to here. You mean there a hardware checks signature chain from boot to kernel, secure boot. Apple's software has too many security vulnerability to be considered "formally verified". 2. Android does support device attestation and secure boot. I 100% would love to see our future SMS replacement require frequent signatures from device attestation hardware (why…

It is a fork of this:

https://people.cs.ksu.edu/~danielwang/BAS/klein-2014-microke...

This is not the kernel that runs on the host CPU. It is the one that handles keys in the security coprocessor. I don’t know of many hacks of that, in practice. There was one where you could guess the pin, and use a timing attack to power down the chip before it persisted the “bad guess” count, which let people brute force pins (with special hardware).

It’s worth noting that the kernel Apple ships is a fork of L4; no idea if they’ve introduced bugs since the paper was written.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#593

Post by hedora »

f_devd wrote: post #487
hedora wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the security coprocessor on every iPhone and Mac runs a formally verified operating system that manages the at-rest encrypted messages. Also, all software running on the phone is vetted before being allowed to hit consumer devices, which adds an extra level of security between malicious developers and kernel APIs. There's no way Android will support that stuff across its entire ecosystem, so I guess it means th…

Encrypted at rest does not actually do anything against interoperability of protocols (as I put in my comment), a secure element/coprocessor is nice but still does nothing against compatibility. Even if the entire protocol is somehow in the coprocessor (ala BPF/SGX) there is nothing preventing the counterparty from running it on a regular CPU.

Interoperability can break security properties though. If I send you an iMessage, I can be confident that someone that steals your phone (while it is locked) cannot read that message (ignoring things like state-sponsored attacks).

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#594

Post by barkerja »

foepys wrote: post #19
asimpletune wrote: post #18

The main benefit of iMessage over all the other messaging platforms is there's a lot less spam. I hope this decision doesn't threaten that.

Is that a problem worldwide or more localized to the US? I am using Signal, Threema, and WhatsApp and never received spam on any messanger, only occasionally via SMS.

Multiple times a week I receive WhatsApp spam. Generally it's trying to add me to a crypto group or someone trying to phish information.

The only other service/medium where I get comparable (really any) spam is SMS/email.

I've never, and I mean never, have received a spam message over iMessage.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#595

Post by Vt71fcAqt7 »

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #524
Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse.

Care to explain why?

If we can ignore what the law says in favor of its spirit, then the law certainly means that the EU can "shut off" e2ee at any point, given their track record. Second, even if the above is false, it doesn't matter as whoever gets to decide "the spirit" of this law can say that it doesn't apply to terrorists, or doesn't apply durring x type of situation.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#596

Post by namdnay »

dncornholio wrote: post #274
namdnay wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Id say is that today anyone who wants to sell a “smart” product has to write a proper clean iOS app that gets reviewed. Tomorrow I can guarantee they will immediately cut costs and ship out piles of sideloaded garbage Sure, it’s up to the consumer to choose, but they’re not going to write that on the package

Nobody is going to ship their commercial apps outside the app store, because else nobody would be able to find their app.

I'm thinking more of a smart fridge, or car app, or some other crap. I'm 99% sure a lot of them will stop going through the painful iOS process and just give you a QR code for their app

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#597

Post by 77pt77 »

Dalewyn wrote: post #514
oblio wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean you're worried about USB attacks?

USB is a data connection, you're telling me to just stick my thing in there? Who knows where that hole's been or what it is.

You can get power only cables.

Your only concern would be someone trying to fry your computer, but electrical outlets are the same.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#598

Post by ohgodplsno »

piffey wrote: post #227
ohgodplsno wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like happens daily on Androi... nevermind, it doesn't happen. Beautiful strawman you've built yourself there.

Actually yes it does. 3rd party app stores is where the majority of Android malware comes from. The vast majority of mobile malware is all Android for this reason. Whenever I need low hanging fruit for mobile malware analysis it’s always start at a third party Android App Store. It’s a dumpster fire. iOS’ advantage is it’s walled garden. It’s a place where a lot of trust is curated for the nontechnical. This evaporat…

Delightful movement of the goal posts, highly technical move.

Your argument was that the moment there is no longer a need to be constrained by Apple's App Store rules, your Samsung dishwasher will make you install its app through Shady Store Incorporated, because it's easier, and it'll make your grandma install it.

Except that doesn't happen. Noone has done that. The highest profile case is Fortnite, and it makes you install it either through Epic Games, or the Samsung Galaxy Store, and the only reason for that is that Google feels entitled to taking 30% of transactions too.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#599

Post by jrm4 »

hellojesus wrote: post #350
jrm4 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy HERE is "individual preferences accurately reflect collective good." Again, there's no clear-cut answer at any given time whether or not "this particular possibly-restrictive regulation is good for everyone." Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. That's what you use democracy/government for, to figure these things out.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

The whole point of market economies is to let people freely trade goods and services, but has absolutely NOTHING to do with the silly fantasy of "consumption equals governance." That's textbook nerd BS that just doesn't play out well in real life. You need direct governance, you can't expect a tool designed for one thing to do another.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#600

Post by jrm4 »

hellojesus wrote: post #537
KiwiJohnno wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. All apple have to do is release documentation on the iMessage protocol, and allow other vendors to use this protocol to build apps that can use apple's iMessage service. Apple obviously won't write these apps, or support those apps or the devices they run on. Also, If Apple at a later date add features to the iMessage protocol then they document the changes & make this available…

> Apple is not being forced to do anything at all here, except stop blocking other vendors from using iMessage. > All apple have to do is release documentation on the iMessage protocol, and allow other vendors to use this protocol to build apps that can use apple's iMessage service. Your very argument is contradictory. The law does require Apple to do something. It requires them to reveal trade secrets and IP.

This is nitpicky. Fine. It does not require Apple to "build" something or to engage in additional work.
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