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Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

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Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#241

Post by red-iron-pine »

RHSeeger wrote: post #114
fnordpiglet wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because they used the phrase “grade level” to describe their threshold? This metric appears to be defined as “greater than the median scoring when the metric was first established.” This years results are a little less than before the pandemic but greater than when the metric was established. It appears you can’t compare this to any other state or region, so by what measure is it “not good?” The term grade level…

I think your point is fairly solid. If you rephrase this to "just less than half the students in CA read or do math at the average level for their grade, in their state", the response should be "well, duh?".

This just in: half of a population are below average.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#242

Post by triceratops »

theGnuMe wrote: post #209
triceratops wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe bad teachers can pull down performance way more than good teachers can raise it. You'd need to compare the performances of kids with varying levels of help at home in classes with good teachers vs bad teachers. My own experience in school was that I tuned out bad teachers completely. If the teacher was good, I engaged more with the material in class. But in all subjects I had my parents' considerable expertise…

My parents never helped me with homework and I did fine cause I had great teachers. In think focusing on the home and “home work” is putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. We go to school to learn. That is where learning should be evaluated and focused. Pushing this on parents and home life is naive, immoral and wrong.

You're talking about how it should be, I'm tell you how it is.

A teacher's impact is diffuse and spread over 30 students. A parent might only have an free hour to help their kid with homework. But it's still more individual attention than any great teacher can give.

Parents can motivate and enforce standards on their children in ways that teachers just cannot do. No teacher can ground you for failing a quiz, or treat you to Disneyland for winning a science fair prize. Most people would rather make their parents proud than their teachers.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#243

Post by nerpderp82 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #184
nerpderp82 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are not underperformers , you can't and shouldn't segment the population across some quantitative boundary. Each individual should learn at a difficulty gradient for them that is positive and engaging for each subject. For everyone this will be a different value. What you are describing is a form of damaging elitism.

People absolutely can and do underperform relative to a standard or mean. Perhaps they should also learn at an optimal rate for personal growth. This doesn't negate the statement above, and it certainly isn't an argument for grouping children together where they can't learn at a personally appropriate rate.

Are you addressing the my statement relative to the GP? They are making the elitist assertion that the gifted kids should be separated from the chaff. Having been in gifted programs, I have not found the removal of "underperformers" to be anything other than classism.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#244

Post by nerpderp82 »

latchkey wrote: post #88
Scubabear68 wrote: post #42

In our rural public school in NJ, both our kids were routinely socially promoted with B’a and C’s even though they were very below average on State testing. We tried fighting this but the inertia of “do nothing and pass anyway” was too great. When we moved them to private school last year (5th and 9th grade), they had a brutal adjustment period of catching up from being so far behind, and for learning studying habits…

Not just that, but the food we give to these kids is horrible. I know that he is a bit contrived in his methodologies, but you watch enough of his shows that you can see the adult behavior reactions to his methods, it is clear that nothing is ever going to change... https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/jamie-oliver-is-his-...

I watched this great documentary where the "problem kids" were fed high quality fresh food for breakfast and lunch. Many of their problems disappeared.

I think it was Cafeteria Man, but I am not sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbCtpGV_Crg

Turns out there are a bunch documentaries that show how nutrition is a big driver in child development and school performance.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#245

Post by cptskippy »

frumper wrote: post #218
cptskippy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids on the bottom half of the bell curve, especially without parental support, are always going to struggle at school. It's not just kids on the bottom half because those that need support are disruptive to the entire class. The way the system is setup, you not only need parental support but the parent drives the process and the administration is resistive because it imposes more work on already strained staff. I…

I'm not understanding your point aside from the teacher could benefit from an aid. IEPs are legally binding agreements that the schools agree to based on student needs. Are you suggesting that the teacher should not be providing this IEP support, but the parents should seek outside support for that?

I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion, I said:

> There are a number of high needs kids in the class who need Individualized Education Plans (IEPs). These must be initiated by the parents and require outside services and assessments to be truly effective. The parents have largely been resistive to the teacher's appeals.

The teacher is asking the parents to initiate the IEP process because of the teacher's observations of the student in class.

> Are you suggesting ... the parents should seek outside support for that?

Part of the IEP process is that the parents must justify to the administration that an IEP is necessary. "Because the teacher said so" isn't sufficient. Outside support can be doctors, counselors, therapists, psychologists, etc.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#246

Post by golergka »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #217
golergka wrote: post #61

I'm not an american — what level of math proficiency for at what age are we talking about here? Is it about being bad at integrals or not being able to solve a simple quadratic equation?

The latter, and that's probably still too high a bar for any grade below senior year.

I don't usually swear on HN but what the fuck.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#247

Post by s1artibartfast »

nerpderp82 wrote: post #243
s1artibartfast wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People absolutely can and do underperform relative to a standard or mean. Perhaps they should also learn at an optimal rate for personal growth. This doesn't negate the statement above, and it certainly isn't an argument for grouping children together where they can't learn at a personally appropriate rate.

Are you addressing the my statement relative to the GP? They are making the elitist assertion that the gifted kids should be separated from the chaff. Having been in gifted programs, I have not found the removal of "underperformers" to be anything other than classism.

I agree that gifted kids should be "separated from the chaff".

I don't see how you reconcile your belief that students should go at their own pace with the idea that students should not be separated. Lack of separation forces all students to progress at the same rate, either high or low.

Having been in gifted tracks and standard tracks, I saw a clear difference in the capabilities of students and coursework. If I had been forced to stay in the standard track, I would prefer to drop out.

Last, I reject your idea that no student can underperform. At best it is a meaningless empty statement. At worst it is a delusional denial that any differences or lines of comparison exist. Nobody is talented, untalented, tall, short, fast, slow. They just are what they are, unique and incomparable.

There is absolutely a class component to gifted programs, but the vast majority of the time this results from the additional support and nurturing upper class parents give their children. I don't think egalitarianism is a sufficient rationale for stifling and handicapping the progress of those children.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#248

Post by thebooktocome »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #167
thebooktocome wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers’ unions are basically ineffective outside of large liberal cities (NYC, Chicago, Seattle). Their ability to “protect lousy teachers”, as you put it, has already been gutted. As a side-effect, they’re also now incapable of retaining exceptional teachers.

Counter example, n=1. We are in one of the smallest school districts in NJ, "out in the sticks" as it were. The teacher's union is extremely powerful here. Everybody - and I mean everybody - knows who the bad teachers are. Nothing at all can be done get them to improve or to exit. When parents come in talking about issues, the teachers all put up a wall of educational verbiage and jargon that is impenetrable, but the…

I’m not sure how getting rid of teachers’ unions will also stamp out small town clique effects (i.e., the “good ol’ boys’” network).

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#249

Post by nerpderp82 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #247
nerpderp82 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you addressing the my statement relative to the GP? They are making the elitist assertion that the gifted kids should be separated from the chaff. Having been in gifted programs, I have not found the removal of "underperformers" to be anything other than classism.

I agree that gifted kids should be "separated from the chaff". I don't see how you reconcile your belief that students should go at their own pace with the idea that students should not be separated. Lack of separation forces all students to progress at the same rate, either high or low. Having been in gifted tracks and standard tracks, I saw a clear difference in the capabilities of students and coursework. If I had…

> At best it is a meaningless empty statement. At worst it is a delusional denial that any differences or lines of comparison exist. Nobody is talented, untalented, tall, short, fast, slow. They just are what they are, unique and incomparable.

Disingenuous hot take, you are putting words in my mouth. Done.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#250

Post by s1artibartfast »

nerpderp82 wrote: post #249
s1artibartfast wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that gifted kids should be "separated from the chaff". I don't see how you reconcile your belief that students should go at their own pace with the idea that students should not be separated. Lack of separation forces all students to progress at the same rate, either high or low. Having been in gifted tracks and standard tracks, I saw a clear difference in the capabilities of students and coursework. If I had…

> At best it is a meaningless empty statement. At worst it is a delusional denial that any differences or lines of comparison exist. Nobody is talented, untalented, tall, short, fast, slow. They just are what they are, unique and incomparable. Disingenuous hot take, you are putting words in my mouth. Done.

I gave a range of possibilities and my genuine opinion on them. I'm putting words in my mouth, not yours.

I'm not the one boldly claiming it is impossible for students to underperform.

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