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Banning words won’t make the world more just

theatlantic.com

261–270 of 1001 posts

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#261
> The guide also rejects the disabled in favor of people living with disabilities

FWIW, as someone with a disability, I just don't care about this - your intent and actions matter so much more, as I've commented before[1]:

> I've had people who've obviously been trained to use person-first language be actively unpleasant (often the classic "you don't look disabled" and questioning the authenticity of my documents), and people who've used clumsy, borderline-offensive language go miles out of their way to help me (and the other way around). [...] I will say "disabled person" stands out to me less, as "person with disabilities" can come across as a little forced[, though it's probably because I've heard the former more often].

Notably, however, the Sierra Club guide doesn't seem to actually call for that as far as I can see - it directs you to refer to the National Center on Disability and Journalism’s Disability Language Style Guide[2], which currently states:

> In the past, we have encouraged journalists and others to use person-first language (such as, "a person who has Down syndrome" rather than "a Down syndrome person") as a default. Even with the caveat that this does not apply to all, we have heard from many people with disabilities who take issue with that advice. For us, this really emphasizes the fact that no two people are the same — either with regard to disabilities or language preferences. And so we are no longer offering advice regarding a default.

The one part of the Sierra club guide I would strongly agree with though is:

> Similarly, we should avoid making light of things like PTSD, anxiety or OCD, by using real medical diagnoses as a metaphor for everyday emotional experiences.

It's frustrating to hear people cry "My OCD!" when, for example, they can't tidy something up even though it clearly doesn't bother them a few seconds later, as it feels like it is trivialising the problems this condition can cause, and doesn't even match up with many manifestations of the disorder (my own irrational obsessions cause me to be way _less_ tidy than the average person).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29732405

[2] https://ncdj.org/style-guide/

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#262

The pendulum is swinging back because equity language censors took this way way too far. People-first language ("enslaved people" not "slaves") makes complete sense to me, but making a big fuss about how common English idioms like being "blind to a problem" is somehow offensive is going to earn you nothing but eyerolls from nearly everyone. Some of these, like "grandfathering", cannot even be understood without deep…

It seems to me that one of the issues is that the (more extreme) woke culture has put the entire burden of communication on the speakers rather than the listeners. Is not enough that you intend to offend, or that you say something that offends someone, is whether something that you say could possibly offend someone, even if you didn't have the slightest intentions. On the other say the listeners are free to interpret…

Eh, that’s just internet discourse in general. Once you put down Twitter this stops being an issue. I would love for someone to deconstruct what about social media, regardless of leaning of the platform, the people, or the subject being discussed causes these bad faith takes.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#263
post #3

Is not "equity language" just another form of neocolonialism? How can "rich educated people" rename entire ethnic group (latinx) without their consent? Also there is nothing offensive about being "poor"... Equity language is just another tool to oppress people.

The term latinx didn't come out of "rich educated people" - certainly a lot of educated folk have been pushing it in the last decade (self-identifying grad students and recent college grads, for instance) - but there's a weird sort of prejudice going on in assuming everything can only come out of "rich educated [non-latino, based on your use of "their" there] people" Some discussion here: https://www.latimes.com/opin…

[deleted]

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#264

The pendulum is swinging back because equity language censors took this way way too far. People-first language ("enslaved people" not "slaves") makes complete sense to me, but making a big fuss about how common English idioms like being "blind to a problem" is somehow offensive is going to earn you nothing but eyerolls from nearly everyone. Some of these, like "grandfathering", cannot even be understood without deep…

This is an academic issue, ”a solution in search of a problem” as almost all the rest of academia is. As such, it never stops at a reasonable, meaningful equilibrium; it has to be kept pacing, moving forward towards more and more ridiculous extremes. An academic, in order to stay relevant, needs to keep pushing the invisible and mostly inexistent boundaries that they perceive in whatever field they are involved in. I…

I came to realize that this is the case with advocacy groups. These groups will never want to say, "Hey, things aren't that bad anymore. We're working on some small problems, but honestly, we solved most of the stuff we were concerned about." Everything always needs to be in perpetual crisis. Wikipedia always needs to be in danger of shutting down. Political enemies are always supposed to be one step away from destroying the country forever. That's what drives the donations and prestige that keeps these groups going.

As groups become more successful, they're more likely to shift from reasonable goals to extreme goals.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#268

Frankly, I don't care as long as government isn't involved. Companies (and other organizations owned by individuals) should have every right to hire/fire people based on the language they use, no matter what language that is. Same with companies that decide who they want to sell to and who they don't want to sell to. I'm very much against the idea of governments limiting speech or forcing behavior on private individu…

Would you say the same thing about lifestyles one lives? Or what if that language is something like "I like Trump" or "Black Lives Matter"?

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#269

The pendulum is swinging back because equity language censors took this way way too far. People-first language ("enslaved people" not "slaves") makes complete sense to me, but making a big fuss about how common English idioms like being "blind to a problem" is somehow offensive is going to earn you nothing but eyerolls from nearly everyone. Some of these, like "grandfathering", cannot even be understood without deep…

> For my partner's entire pregnancy, our providers only referred to "birthing people" Calling my wife a "birthing person" just made her feel like some gross vessel for having a baby. We purposefully chose providers that didn't use that language. "Chestfeeding" is another one that's cropping up and makes zero sense. Men have breasts, so breastfeeding is already gender-neutral. But it's seen as female-centric so out th…

Our entire group of animals is named after tits:

Mammals.

How can referring to the fact people have what our entire branch of the tree of life is named after be offensive?

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an academic issue, ”a solution in search of a problem” as almost all the rest of academia is. As such, it never stops at a reasonable, meaningful equilibrium; it has to be kept pacing, moving forward towards more and more ridiculous extremes. An academic, in order to stay relevant, needs to keep pushing the invisible and mostly inexistent boundaries that they perceive in whatever field they are involved in. I…

It's not just academia, it's the modern "meritocracy" more broadly. When getting into a campus club at a top college requires four rounds of interviews, you look for easy ways to signal your eliteness and being hip to the new verbal trends is a great way for the well-heeled to extend their advantage over the less-enlightened. This also applies to jobs whose occupants need to justify their own existence, which they ca…

All social structures survive through their self-perpetuation...it's a general critique with a lot of explanatory power that I've had on my mind.

Any kind of senseless decorum or self-defeating policy comes down to the intersection of self-perpetuating framings of reality with actors who either promote it out of self-interest, or take it upon themselves to become footsoldiers on faithful behalf of that idea, extending it to unreasonable, totalizing lengths in the process of protecting it like a child.

And that can manifest as "my way is right behavior and that is wrong behavior", or "we are good because they are bad", or any number of other illogical defenses. It's just automatic once you decide some thought has to be defended, and when it forms a really persistent, robust structure you end up with a religion, national mythos, economic norm etc. The structure is looking out for itself first, and the current elites hold the most gravity in deciding whether to further perpetuate or not. But elites aren't immune to being true believers either - they have to be able to let go and examine what they want to accomplish, and if the belief they have is too firmly tied to their immediate self-interest, they can't do it.

My reading here is derived somewhat from Heather Marsh's writings, but with different focus and phrasing.

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