EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#561

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 2:36 AM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #313

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #300

I can't quite wrap my head around why people think that it is a good thing for Apple to be regulated into "opening up" (i.e. as opposed to being a "walled garden" platform). If I were an entrepreneur, and say that I wanted to fork a Unix-like OS so that I could make a cross-device OS for consumer hardware that I, too, make---shouldn't I have the right to program my OS to seamlessly integrate only with the apps and th…

If you are starting to corner the market and are able to use your leverage to block competitors in a way that threatens to undermine their business, then the EU (and to an extend the USA) will regulate you. I can flip your question around and ask "should you have the right to play dirty?". Which is what Apple has been doing, there's exactly zero good reason to not license out access to the protocol. I don't own Apple…

Apple has APIs for iMessage: https://register.apple.com/messages

You can even build a REST endpoint for Apple to invoke when your business receives a message from a user: https://register.apple.com/resources/messages/msp-rest-api/m...

Where's the playing dirty and undermining businesses part?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#562

Post by barkerja » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 2:44 AM UTC

speedylight wrote: post #538

jeppester wrote: post #493

It's the same every time. When Apple gets called out for monopolistic anti-consumer behaviour, an army shows up to defend Apple with a bunch of FUD. No, it won't hurt you or your grandma that you can choose app store, choose browser engine, choose payment provider, that you can charge with usb c, etc., and in this case that non-apple users won't be mocked with different colored bubbles and other limitations. Every co…

It does hurt as far as payment for me. Subscriptions with Apple Pay is where it’s at, one place to manage all subscriptions way outside the control of developers is peak use ability imo. I can personally get behind a different browser engine and maybe App Store but I hope they leave Apple Pay alone.

I think you mean app store subscriptions. Apple Pay and app store subscriptions are two different things.

But I do agree with you; I see three likely scenarios:

1. An application offers two payment options: app store and standalone, with a "discount" given to standalone.

2. They change nothing

3. They remove app store subscriptions and force you to their website/app for managing payment/subscription.

If an app chooses option 3, this is where the user is "hurt". I don't see this happening often because I would wager that a service's subscription numbers would take a massive hit. Too many users are accustom to the simplicity that has been offered by in-app purchases/subscriptions.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#563

Post by barkerja » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 2:53 AM UTC

When an application has ideas for enhancing the messaging experience, who governs those changes? What if an application refuses to incorporate those changes, or refuses to make those changes interoperable?

And who decides which application(s) are forced to implement those enhancements?

For example, iMessage supports iMessage apps. I imagine providing interoperability for those would be a monumental task, if not impossible. Would Apple now be forced to abandon its iMessage app store due to lack of interoperability?

Or does this new law apply only to the core tenants of a message application? That a message app must only be interoperable with other apps/services in the sense that it can send and receive basic text?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#564

Post by djtango » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 2:59 AM UTC

guestbest wrote: post #312

djtango wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a globally distributed family and WhatsApp was literally a life changer for me back in 2009/2010. I'm sure other people in a similar position will also know what I'm talking about. It was super lightweight, cheap, multiplatform - when I was interning in Singapore in 2012, I was able to stretch a 2MB pay as you go SIM plan over 2 months using WhatsApp over WAP on a Symbian iPhone. There are few things I will be…

Is whatsapp data traffic free, but email traffic isn’t?

No, it was more a case that the whatsapp client was exceptionally lightweight - especially in 2012 when WhatsApp was basically free global SMS

The email client was much clunkier, presumably because it had to support all the other usage patterns of email.

Worth noting this was a phone that didn't have a touch screen and I was inputting via the numpad

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#565

Post by hellojesus » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 3:53 AM UTC

mort96 wrote: post #516

hellojesus wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You always have the option to turn off cookies. There is literally 0 check you have as a user to ensure a company isn't nefariously using cookies despite your preferences. All the law did was force trash pop-ups everywhere.

I don't want to turn off cookies, I want to be able to log in to things. And the cookie technology isn't the problem, tracking is; if the tracking happens locally using localstorage instead of cookies, I haven't gained anything. The law didn't force pop-ups anywhere. Some companies chose to put pop-ups on their websites.

Tracking happens everywhere you take your phone. Bluetooth beacons, apps grabbing data, etc.

The laws don't stop it. They just force it to change shape. It can be stopped by careful consumption.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#566

Post by fnordpiglet » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 4:35 AM UTC

mort96 wrote: post #518

fnordpiglet wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did providing a pop up on every website you visit saying they use cookies enable your ability to use the accept no cookies feature browsers have had since Netscape navigator? Was a regulation required to enable a feature of all browsers since the dawn of graphical browsers? Or are you saying the regulation allows you to remember that literally every website in existence uses cookies since you forget between websites?…

I don't want to disable cookies. I want to be able to log in to things, and I'm not happier if the site uses localstorage instead of cookies to track me. The GDPR doesn't forbid using cookies, by the way. If cookies are used to remember that you logged in using a session cookie, or remember the state of a shopping cart, or stuff like that, no warning is necessary. It's a law which requires consent to tracking, not co…

GDPR doesn’t say anything really about cookies, actually. I think you meant ePrivacy.

Fact is most popups inform you about cookie use but don’t give you an option to do jack. And what makes you believe they’re ePrivacy compliant? I’ll bet you 90% of those sites, even when well intentioned, pollute you with tracking cookies anyways.

Edit: by the way no modern website uses cookies to maintain your shopping cart, and instead of relying on a persistent credential cookie, you could just use a password manager to expedite login and be more secure overall. Finally, “private” mode on most browsers contains cookies to short lived session cookies within the tab lifespan.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#567

Post by lancepioch » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 5:38 AM UTC

mdasen wrote: post #426

ribosometronome wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody is asking governments to regulate adding cool new features to the that participants can choose to implement or not for their users as they see fit. Isn't that exactly what you're asking of Apple? Apple already has SMS. You want them to adopt RCS because it has cool new features that are lacking in SMS.

I don't think so. I haven't read the EU documents and the article doesn't say, but you can do this without forcing a company to adopt anything. Let's say I propose this rule: Apple must publish the iMessage spec and allow other services to send/receive iMessages. That doesn't force Apple or anyone else to implement any specific feature, beyond allowing others to send/receive messages. WhatsApp or Signal could decide…

You're forcing Apple to carry/send/receive messages for their direct competitors. Apple obviously subsidizes the cost of iMessage currently from their iPhone sales. A workaround could be charging users a monthly rate to connect to their servers I suppose. But that seems like it would maybe defeat the point a little?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#568

Post by raron » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 5:56 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #554

coldtea wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like users thinking imessage is shit because of third party clients. If those are the concerns against forcing them to open it, they shall force them now! I mean, lol... > Or taking away an app devs right to restrict how and where their app is used. You have no inherent right over how imessage is restricted. I mean, by what right or authority do you even get to even discuss forcing how a free(!) app is restricted o…

> Right comes from law Absolutley not true. The law codifies what is already true with respect to rights but the law also fails to codify rights as with womens rights and involuntary servitude, women and black people didn't suddenly gain rights when laws were passed, they've always had those rights except the law and society failed to recognize that until some point. Law or not there are fundamental and inalienable t…

The whole thing is NOT about the app, it is about the provided service.

Some companies are becoming base infrastructure and so they need some regulation. What do you think if your piped water company would refuse to sell you water just because your house number ends with 8?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#569

Post by raron » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 6:03 AM UTC

Telemakhos wrote: post #249

tekknik wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in this case there are no lives being saved, it’s turning green bubbles blue. That’s all this regulation is really about.

Is it really only about bubble color, or also about encryption? Apple goes to great lengths to secure those blue bubbles, even as group texts. Green bubbles are not secure, and Google is pushing an interoperability standard that does not secure group chats because Google likes reading your comms for its advertising business.

The regulation requires the support of same security (and encryption) as native users have.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#570

Post by fingerlocks » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 7:34 AM UTC

ThatPlayer wrote: post #530

MikeKusold wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iMessage already has that, by falling back to SMS.

I cannot send SMS from iMessage on my iPad, or a Macbook if I had one.

Why? I send SMS from my MacBook and iPad every day.