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Non-linear career paths are the future

forbes.com

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Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#21

Post by bradlys »

skullone wrote: post #6
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #5

High School Dropout -> GED -> Redneck Tech School -> RF Tech -> OJT -> Electronic Test Engineer -> Extracurricular Learning -> Big Iron Programmer -> Extracurricular Learning -> Mac Programmer -> Major Corporation -> Major Engineering Company for 27 Years (as Engineer and Manager) -> Declared Persona Non Grata in the Tech Industry (for Being Old) -> Extracurricular Learning -> Working for Free on Stuff That I Find In…

Ageism is too much of a thing in tech. These young frontend js developers can't even hold down F2 to enter the BIOS. So much knowledge lost from companies letting decades worth of experience walk out the door. And it shows, so many modern products have shite architecture.

Boomer-esque speak.

You're out of touch if you think that architecture is what anyone cares about these days. It's about getting PMF and first to ship. Everything else is not even secondary but completely forgotten. If you can manage to make good architectural decisions while shipping incredibly fast - hey, congrats, you got lucky on this project. But I've worked with plenty of devs with 20+ years of experience and what holds them back is their reluctance to just ship shit code real fast.

This ultimately makes them less usable for management because we're not focused on sustainable and clean code - we're focused on getting that next round of funding, beating the competitor to the market, and pivoting wildly to get PMF. (or just more plainly - appeasing our bosses - whether that's the VC, the CEO, the CTO, a VP, a director, or another manager or some customer who gives us money)

You might think your practice is what matters but what you forgot is that no one gives a shit what you think. The employer gives a shit what you'll do and if you'll do what they want. You don't do what they want? HIT THE BRICKS JACK! Go retire.

Employment is for serfs. You want to dictate the rules? Start your own company.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#22

Post by bradlys »

Sounds like survivorship bias to me.

Seen plenty of people drop out of things and never make a return to some magical FAANG or whatever employment/founding/etc after. Those folks don't make the headlines though and you don't remember them because - well - why would you.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#23

Post by knightofmars »

xwdv wrote: post #9
skullone wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ageism is too much of a thing in tech. These young frontend js developers can't even hold down F2 to enter the BIOS. So much knowledge lost from companies letting decades worth of experience walk out the door. And it shows, so many modern products have shite architecture.

Unfortunately though the lifespan of modern products isn’t very long either, so there’s not much value in investing in old time engineers to build products that could last forever. Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands, etc.

I don't know that your experience is but I've worked on many products that are 10+ years old. Additionally, I'd take 3 old time engineers over 6 new engineers in a heartbeat. The problem is that every business wants to cut labor cost because that's the MBA way to do things. Why pay USA wages to someone with 15+ years of experience when you can hire three new beginners in the USA or an entire team in another country (again with less experience) for the same amount? The part you're missing from your analogy is the speed and quality of the bridge to be built. Want it done fast and right? Hire the engineers with experience. Want it done fast and possibly going to collapse and end in a lawsuit in 5 years? Hire those idiots.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#24

Post by itsmemattchung »

mabbo wrote: post #14

For a decade at Amazon, nearly everyone I worked with was following the linear, expected path. High school, university, degree, FAANG job. Amazon basically didn't interview SDE1s unless they were new grads. For a number of years that policy was explicit from our Director because "we find that works out best". Now I'm at Shopify, where it feels like a complete 180. More than half my team took non-traditional paths- fo…

Ex-AWS here and echo what you said. Although there are some outliers (like myself, in terms of non-linear path) at AWS, most SDEs more or less traveled a similar paths:

1. Undergrad CS -> FAANG 2. (International) Undergrad {CS, Math, Computer Engineering} -> Masters {CS, Math, Computer Engineering} -> FAANG

Awesome to hear (at Shopify) that the company welcomes more diverse (technical/academic) backgrounds.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#25

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

knightofmars wrote: post #23
xwdv wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately though the lifespan of modern products isn’t very long either, so there’s not much value in investing in old time engineers to build products that could last forever. Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands, etc.

I don't know that your experience is but I've worked on many products that are 10+ years old. Additionally, I'd take 3 old time engineers over 6 new engineers in a heartbeat. The problem is that every business wants to cut labor cost because that's the MBA way to do things. Why pay USA wages to someone with 15+ years of experience when you can hire three new beginners in the USA or an entire team in another country (…

My experience, is that they are paying kids right out of college, more than I ever made in my career.

They are willing to pay to avoid old.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#26

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

xwdv wrote: post #16
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written SDKs that were still in use, 25 years later, on highly modern equipment (digicam SDK -originally designed for film scanners). The biggest extracurricular project that I did, was first released in early 2009, and is still picking up traction, this very day... Depends on what you want. Some stuff should not be designed for the long haul, but some, definitely should.

But has that improved your hireability or???

I don’t care.

Just reading some of these comments, makes me happy I have made the choices that I have made.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#27

Post by ryandrake »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #25
knightofmars wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that your experience is but I've worked on many products that are 10+ years old. Additionally, I'd take 3 old time engineers over 6 new engineers in a heartbeat. The problem is that every business wants to cut labor cost because that's the MBA way to do things. Why pay USA wages to someone with 15+ years of experience when you can hire three new beginners in the USA or an entire team in another country (…

My experience, is that they are paying kids right out of college, more than I ever made in my career. They are willing to pay to avoid old.

I would agree with this. Late 40s here, and my comp today is higher than it's ever been, but Im pretty sure my comp as a percentage relative to my peers is at its lowest point ever and will get lower in future jobs.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#28

Post by diob »

mabbo wrote: post #14

For a decade at Amazon, nearly everyone I worked with was following the linear, expected path. High school, university, degree, FAANG job. Amazon basically didn't interview SDE1s unless they were new grads. For a number of years that policy was explicit from our Director because "we find that works out best". Now I'm at Shopify, where it feels like a complete 180. More than half my team took non-traditional paths- fo…

It also keeps the base those that have the privilege to turn down other jobs and focus solely on getting hired at Amazon (or other FAANG) right out of college.

A good chunk of folks (among whom exist great developers) are those that are focused on working a job while graduating, and getting to a point where they have stable finances. Then they focus on things like "what kind of job" do I want, and "where do I want to work". That could be years and years down the line though.

So it enforces an aristocracy / pedigree of sorts, but folks are hesitant to admit as such.

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#29

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

bradlys wrote: post #21
skullone wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ageism is too much of a thing in tech. These young frontend js developers can't even hold down F2 to enter the BIOS. So much knowledge lost from companies letting decades worth of experience walk out the door. And it shows, so many modern products have shite architecture.

Boomer-esque speak. You're out of touch if you think that architecture is what anyone cares about these days. It's about getting PMF and first to ship. Everything else is not even secondary but completely forgotten. If you can manage to make good architectural decisions while shipping incredibly fast - hey, congrats, you got lucky on this project. But I've worked with plenty of devs with 20+ years of experience and w…

You’re right, of course.

Sadly, I find that I have the heart of a craftsman, so I won’t compromise my own Principles.

True, some (a lot, maybe) folks will sneer at me as a “poor,” and look down on me, for not being willing to compromise my personal Integrity for money, but I learned to ignore that, a long time ago. I’m not competitive, and I don’t care about dying with the most toys.

I like making stuff that will improve lives, and make the world a better place. I’d much rather do free work that benefits a destitute, homeless, recovering drug addict, or a re-entering felon, than be paid for work that is really about entertaining some wealthy, bored, tech bro.

I know that is a minority stance, in this community. I don’t feel (or want to feel) as if I’m better than anyone here, but I also know that I’ll be vigorously attacked, just for saying things like “I want to care about the people that use my work.”

Re: Non-linear career paths are the future

#30

Post by r-s »

mabbo wrote: post #14

For a decade at Amazon, nearly everyone I worked with was following the linear, expected path. High school, university, degree, FAANG job. Amazon basically didn't interview SDE1s unless they were new grads. For a number of years that policy was explicit from our Director because "we find that works out best". Now I'm at Shopify, where it feels like a complete 180. More than half my team took non-traditional paths- fo…

Did Shopify have a choice?

Many Canadians who got computer science degrees left to work for American companies for 2x-3x more money.

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