Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips • Hacker News Board

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#41

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:50 AM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #35

hathawsh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I well below the average? I spent $22k on a new car in 1999 that I stopped driving in 2022. I would guess I spent $15k on maintenance and repairs, but let's go on the high end and say $20k for that. That means it cost me an average of $42k / 23 = $1826 per year for that car, excluding fuel. In a year that I drove 10k miles, when the car's fuel economy was 24 MPG and the fuel cost $4 per gallon, the fuel would cost…

Insurance, registration, property taxes (in some areas). Not sure if that annual costs includes parking and other things that cost, but aren’t obvious for many people (many of us park for “free”, but we’ve paid for those space through higher rents, mortgages, etc). For the rest of the money, the average new car costs around $50k today. And the average ownership length is about 8 years. Average loan length is approach…

It's hilarious to me that anyone would overlook 25 years of registration fees, considering that Californians literally overthrew their government because of registration fees. Maybe in their jurisdiction it's not that costly.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#42

Post by Aperocky » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:50 AM UTC

hathawsh wrote: post #23

d_sem wrote: post #4

When you factor in the reduced capital costs, carbon emissions, noise pollution, traffic, wear on infrastructure, health benefits, etc of electric bicycles the opportunity cost of car ownership over e-bike adoption is tremendous. The average cost of owning a car in 2022 is $10,728 per year: a figure which blows my mind.(edit: Source bankrate.com, the top hit on google) As a personal anecdote, my household has gone fr…

Am I well below the average? I spent $22k on a new car in 1999 that I stopped driving in 2022. I would guess I spent $15k on maintenance and repairs, but let's go on the high end and say $20k for that. That means it cost me an average of $42k / 23 = $1826 per year for that car, excluding fuel. In a year that I drove 10k miles, when the car's fuel economy was 24 MPG and the fuel cost $4 per gallon, the fuel would cost…

Do you drive without insurance or tags? Those are some major costs.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#43

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:52 AM UTC

hathawsh wrote: post #23

d_sem wrote: post #4

When you factor in the reduced capital costs, carbon emissions, noise pollution, traffic, wear on infrastructure, health benefits, etc of electric bicycles the opportunity cost of car ownership over e-bike adoption is tremendous. The average cost of owning a car in 2022 is $10,728 per year: a figure which blows my mind.(edit: Source bankrate.com, the top hit on google) As a personal anecdote, my household has gone fr…

Am I well below the average? I spent $22k on a new car in 1999 that I stopped driving in 2022. I would guess I spent $15k on maintenance and repairs, but let's go on the high end and say $20k for that. That means it cost me an average of $42k / 23 = $1826 per year for that car, excluding fuel. In a year that I drove 10k miles, when the car's fuel economy was 24 MPG and the fuel cost $4 per gallon, the fuel would cost…

[deleted]

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#44

Post by smileysteve » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:52 AM UTC

hathawsh wrote: post #23

d_sem wrote: post #4

When you factor in the reduced capital costs, carbon emissions, noise pollution, traffic, wear on infrastructure, health benefits, etc of electric bicycles the opportunity cost of car ownership over e-bike adoption is tremendous. The average cost of owning a car in 2022 is $10,728 per year: a figure which blows my mind.(edit: Source bankrate.com, the top hit on google) As a personal anecdote, my household has gone fr…

Am I well below the average? I spent $22k on a new car in 1999 that I stopped driving in 2022. I would guess I spent $15k on maintenance and repairs, but let's go on the high end and say $20k for that. That means it cost me an average of $42k / 23 = $1826 per year for that car, excluding fuel. In a year that I drove 10k miles, when the car's fuel economy was 24 MPG and the fuel cost $4 per gallon, the fuel would cost…

Yes, you are below average; the average new car is owned for 8 years and the median for 4 years.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#45

Post by acdha » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:53 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #9

jeffbee wrote: post #3

Impressive results. Now the question is will they commit to a program with so few costs and so many benefits, or will they just forget it like most American cities forget their "pilot" programs?

Just looking at reducing CO2 emissions, 0.94 lb CO2e per dollar spent is a terrible return. That money applied to more efficient CO2 reduction options could return 100-1000x better.

It’s a long game. Removing a car from the road lowers CO2 now and saves the rider a ton of money for years, but it also reduces demand for expensive infrastructure which locks in a massive CO2 footprint for decades. If you build society around driving, people will expect endless road expansion and repair projects; give them better alternatives and that feedback process works in the other direction, not to mention the general benefit from saving lives and improving quality of life.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#46

Post by aimor » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:53 AM UTC

d_sem wrote: post #4

When you factor in the reduced capital costs, carbon emissions, noise pollution, traffic, wear on infrastructure, health benefits, etc of electric bicycles the opportunity cost of car ownership over e-bike adoption is tremendous. The average cost of owning a car in 2022 is $10,728 per year: a figure which blows my mind.(edit: Source bankrate.com, the top hit on google) As a personal anecdote, my household has gone fr…

I previously looked into the average cost per mile of car ownership, after hearing the IRS values it at 58.5 cents/mile, and came up with this breakdown ($7,605/yr):

"The average vehicle costs $40k, is owned for 11 years, gets driven 13k miles per year, burns 25 mpg, gas costs $3/gal, insurance is $1500 per year, and the vehicle needs $900 per year in maintenance and repairs."

The Bankrate estimate seems high, but not by much. My own cost is 38.4 c/mile.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#47

Post by avianlyric » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:53 AM UTC

jupp0r wrote: post #30

Gigachad wrote: post #13

E bikes are amazing for getting around. Did it for years before moving inner city and just walking. The major issue I had was the fear of theft as e-bikes are stolen regularly and cost a lot to replace.

The major issue is safety. Bikers are much more (3.4x to 11.5x) likely to be fatally injured per mile travelled compared to people driving cars [1]. Better bike infrastructure is needed. [1] https://bicycleuniverse.com/bicycle-safety-almanac/

Yet despite that, the improvement in fitness from commuting by bike rather than car, is so great that switching to bike will statistically increase your lifespan in just about every city in the world. That’s after including the negative impacts of increased exposure to air pollution, and higher likelihood of being fatally injured while commuting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/cycli...

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#48

Post by eikenberry » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:55 AM UTC

hathawsh wrote: post #23

d_sem wrote: post #4

When you factor in the reduced capital costs, carbon emissions, noise pollution, traffic, wear on infrastructure, health benefits, etc of electric bicycles the opportunity cost of car ownership over e-bike adoption is tremendous. The average cost of owning a car in 2022 is $10,728 per year: a figure which blows my mind.(edit: Source bankrate.com, the top hit on google) As a personal anecdote, my household has gone fr…

Am I well below the average? I spent $22k on a new car in 1999 that I stopped driving in 2022. I would guess I spent $15k on maintenance and repairs, but let's go on the high end and say $20k for that. That means it cost me an average of $42k / 23 = $1826 per year for that car, excluding fuel. In a year that I drove 10k miles, when the car's fuel economy was 24 MPG and the fuel cost $4 per gallon, the fuel would cost…

I'd guess the average is higher due to a few factors. First being that people, on average, don't keep a car nearly that long. Average ownership (after a quick search) seems to be around 5-7 years. Another thing might be your fuel economy given the most popular "car" in the US is a pickup truck. Also there is the cost of insurance, which I'm not sure you counted.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#49

Post by rainsford » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:55 AM UTC

hathawsh wrote: post #23

d_sem wrote: post #4

When you factor in the reduced capital costs, carbon emissions, noise pollution, traffic, wear on infrastructure, health benefits, etc of electric bicycles the opportunity cost of car ownership over e-bike adoption is tremendous. The average cost of owning a car in 2022 is $10,728 per year: a figure which blows my mind.(edit: Source bankrate.com, the top hit on google) As a personal anecdote, my household has gone fr…

Am I well below the average? I spent $22k on a new car in 1999 that I stopped driving in 2022. I would guess I spent $15k on maintenance and repairs, but let's go on the high end and say $20k for that. That means it cost me an average of $42k / 23 = $1826 per year for that car, excluding fuel. In a year that I drove 10k miles, when the car's fuel economy was 24 MPG and the fuel cost $4 per gallon, the fuel would cost…

You are well below average basically across the board. Most people don't keep a car 23 years (I think about half that is average), buy fairly expensive cars (average car price today is well above what you paid even adjusted for inflation), drive cars with less than great gas mileage, drive more than 10k miles per year (15k if I remember right), and buy unreliable car brands that cost a lot in repairs. You're also not factoring in insurance.

Re: Denver’s e-bike subsidy program produced more new riders, fewer car trips

#50

Post by mattcantstop » Fri, Mar 03, 2023, 12:55 AM UTC

Scubabear68 wrote: post #33

Just today I saw a crazy e-bike kid cruise down a major highway, going back and forth between the north and south lanes on the shoulder at intersections, narrowly missing several tractor trailers. And when I am in major cities I am regularly almost run down by scooter people. What are the stats on injury rates on these things?

40,000 people are killed each year by cars in the United States. We do need to ensure bikes and scooters are not on the sidewalks. The best way to do this is to build dedicated bike lanes that remove bicycles and scooters from the sidewalk and from the road (where cars are too dangerous).

But I can't take humans serious as this stage where 40,000 of us are dying each year and so little is done to prevent it despite it being something we can dramatically improve. But people shake their fist at a scooter laying on it's side on the sidewalk while 7 Eleven says a car drives into one of their stores (through the building) on average once a day.