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EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

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Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#361

Post by jhrmnn »

mattrighetti wrote: post #191
dijit wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] without actually realising that it is actually going to make things worse, that's what regulation does in most cases. Feels like a uniquely american take. Companies that are maliciously compliant are not the norm. Leaving behind that most is an ambiguous enough term that means you could basically discredit anything I come up with, how do you feel about regulations that limit the use of harmful or toxic chemic…

> Regulations are the only tool that society has to prevent companies acting against the social good. The fallacy here is that you don't get to decide what "social good" is, especially in this case. People get to choose what is good for them, we're talking about tech products here. I see regulations in this specific case as something that goes against progress, whatever that means for the company of your favorite mes…

> you don't get to decide what "social good" is, especially in this case. People get to choose what is good for them

He or she doesn’t get to, but the society does. Collectively. Not individually. That’s the premise that makes the difference between “society” and a “collection of individuals”

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#363

Post by hedora »

f_devd wrote: post #258
closetnerd wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there more on this? Can this as is really be enough to maintain the security guarantees Apple currently provides?

What security guarantees do Apple currently provide? I can't imagine much more than E2EE & maybe encrypted-at-rest (which is not a protocol-level feature anyway).

Well, the security coprocessor on every iPhone and Mac runs a formally verified operating system that manages the at-rest encrypted messages. Also, all software running on the phone is vetted before being allowed to hit consumer devices, which adds an extra level of security between malicious developers and kernel APIs.

There's no way Android will support that stuff across its entire ecosystem, so I guess it means the law is toothless? Maybe it means it will be up to each hardware manufacturer to ensure interoperability?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#364

Post by sandgiant »

danrl wrote: post #224

A convenient first step for European governments towards killing effective end-to-end cryptography usage in everyday messaging. It used to be checks notes „terrorism“ and „child safety“ and now the hot new thing is „interoperability“. Who would have thought, that of all the above, „interoperability“ would be the one that makes it into legislation.

I'm curious about this too. At least now I have fairly decent confidence that when I send an iMessage to someone, Apple protects their identity to whatever standard they have. Whatever trust I put in Apple, at least it's a single point of failure.

What happens if interoperability is enforced and messages have to be end-to-end encrypted? Wouldn't that mean that any side-loaded Android app would have to be able to get hold of my friend's private iMessage key?

On iOS I guess you could still keep the key private through Apple's SDK, but what about other platforms?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#365

Post by horsawlarway »

kgc wrote: post #348
jjulius wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer? What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp... Okay, this is where I think we need to make clear who this requirement applies to. If we click through the first link, found in the first sentence in the article, to the actual source text[0] and run it through Google Translate, we can find that this requirement only applies to companies... >... whose…

According to this wouldn't Microsoft have to open up Teams and LinkedIn Messages?

Sounds like a win to me.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#366

Post by blep-arsh »

sandgiant wrote: post #364
danrl wrote: post #224

A convenient first step for European governments towards killing effective end-to-end cryptography usage in everyday messaging. It used to be checks notes „terrorism“ and „child safety“ and now the hot new thing is „interoperability“. Who would have thought, that of all the above, „interoperability“ would be the one that makes it into legislation.

I'm curious about this too. At least now I have fairly decent confidence that when I send an iMessage to someone, Apple protects their identity to whatever standard they have. Whatever trust I put in Apple, at least it's a single point of failure. What happens if interoperability is enforced and messages have to be end-to-end encrypted? Wouldn't that mean that any side-loaded Android app would have to be able to get…

The protocol is just registering a public key for each device to the server-side directory. A device-specific private key is generated and kept client-side on every device that logs in to iMessage.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#367

Post by kingkawn »

hellojesus wrote: post #350
jrm4 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy HERE is "individual preferences accurately reflect collective good." Again, there's no clear-cut answer at any given time whether or not "this particular possibly-restrictive regulation is good for everyone." Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. That's what you use democracy/government for, to figure these things out.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

Many generations of people fought and died to not just let the monstrous assholes with resources decide everything.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#368

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

hellojesus wrote: post #350
jrm4 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy HERE is "individual preferences accurately reflect collective good." Again, there's no clear-cut answer at any given time whether or not "this particular possibly-restrictive regulation is good for everyone." Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. That's what you use democracy/government for, to figure these things out.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

> Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

As an iPhone, iPad, and iMessage user, please explain how I will "suffer horribly" from being able to interact with the iMessage service from non-Apple devices.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#369

Post by blep-arsh »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #340

As nice as interoperability (and the accompanying possibility of something like a modern-day Adium) is, I worry that this will introduce SMS' rampant spam problems to iMessage and the various other messaging services that will also be required to open up. Part of the reason spam is so rare on iMessage is because it requires an iCloud account on an Apple device, which not only raises the barrier to entry significantly…

I'm receiving lots of (non-SMS) spam over iMessage, though. Sometimes daily.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#370

Post by robertoandred »

MikeKusold wrote: post #175
lentil_soup wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine they'd setup a basic protocol for interoperability of simple messages and then each client can build anything they want on top? Similar to other protocols. At least that's what I am hoping for

iMessage already has that, by falling back to SMS.

That's a feature of the Messages app, not the iMessage service.
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