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EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

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Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#331

Post by smoldesu »

hwbehrens wrote: post #248
JoeNr76 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, it's removing barriers for competition. Which is what good regulations is all about. (and, technically it more than just bubble color, it's also including everyone in group chats)

I think what the (grand)parent would argue is that this isn't removing barriers to competition, it's removing competition itself . That is, iMessage is a feature provided by Apple that makes their products more compelling as compared to their competitors. By requiring Apple to provide this feature to their competitors, they lose one of the key differentiators that make their products "better" than their competitors.…

> it's removing competition itself.

That's pretty funny considering the European Commission's original complaint against Apple was for anti-competitive behavior.

Maybe things would have turned out differently if Apple hadn't embraced, extended and extinguished SMS. Maybe regulators would be a little more lenient if the App Store was ruled with anything other than an iron fist. But now they have to take action, not because Apple is unique, but because their business practices are interfering with the progress of the rest of the industry. Competitive agency is a weak excuse when they're a noted tyrant on their own platform.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#332

Post by [deleted] »

yakireev wrote: post #98
seszett wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) the matter. WhatsApp can be installed on any device. iMessage requires specific hardware, i.e. an Apple iPhone. It is always possible not to use either and just communicate by SMS (which I prefer myself, but as I understand it WhatsApp came to be used here in Belgium because phone plans are expensive and SMS are still limited/paid on most plans) but that's a differ…

> I think you're misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) the matter. The matter here is that the commenter I was responding to says I don't exist. My experience is that folks with that attitude also treat me as if I don't exist. I object to both of these things. Selling your first-born rights for a lentil soup, or agreeing to adversarial T&C of a foreign corporation should not be a precondition for participating in a s…

[deleted]

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#333

Post by jjav »

mattrighetti wrote: post #165

This sounds nice, but when you really think about the consequences it really is not. Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer? What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp want to implement something "different" that could make messaging better but this policy is making things harder to implement because it would be impossible to make it interoperate with other messaging apps? I don't get w…

> What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp want to implement something "different" that could make messaging better

This is never how it was supposed to be. The internet was the massive success it is because it is built on open standards.

Back in the day, if anyone wanted to build a better protocol at something, you had open discussions and eventually come up with an RFC that anyone and everyone can implement and be interoperable.

While it's difficult to shove that genie back into the bottle, anything that in any way promotes interoperable standards above these terrible proprietary walled gardens is a huge win.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#334

Post by kmlx »

iSnow wrote: post #313
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #300

I can't quite wrap my head around why people think that it is a good thing for Apple to be regulated into "opening up" (i.e. as opposed to being a "walled garden" platform). If I were an entrepreneur, and say that I wanted to fork a Unix-like OS so that I could make a cross-device OS for consumer hardware that I, too, make---shouldn't I have the right to program my OS to seamlessly integrate only with the apps and th…

If you are starting to corner the market and are able to use your leverage to block competitors in a way that threatens to undermine their business, then the EU (and to an extend the USA) will regulate you. I can flip your question around and ask "should you have the right to play dirty?". Which is what Apple has been doing, there's exactly zero good reason to not license out access to the protocol. I don't own Apple…

> "should you have the right to play dirty?"

is Apple playing dirty in this scenario? and if it is, then what exactly is stopping regulators from improving SMS thus making Apple's position moot?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#335

Post by [deleted] »

gloryjulio wrote: post #13
anaganisk wrote: post #4

If stars align right for Apple, this can at least with some probability that they can kill WhatsApp in a few countries. If they implement a few features.

Lmao. How? This just means that msging apps on Android will finally be able to break the blue bubble problem. There will be even less incentive for ppl to switch to iphone to enjoy the 'privilege'

[deleted]

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#336

Post by gpvos »

dustedcodes wrote: post #322

I don't get it. Isn't SMS the cross platform open standard to send text messages? Why force a proprietary product to open up? Feels like a big overreach of governmental powers.

SMS is currenty being undermined by Google's RCS on Android.[0] Some SMSes sent by Google Messages already don't arrive at non-RCS clients. So that also should be forced to open up. In fact, this is a large part of why Signal is dropping SMS support.[1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services [1] https://signal.org/blog/sms-removal-android/

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#337

Post by grishka »

mattrighetti wrote: post #165

This sounds nice, but when you really think about the consequences it really is not. Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer? What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp want to implement something "different" that could make messaging better but this policy is making things harder to implement because it would be impossible to make it interoperate with other messaging apps? I don't get w…

Maybe not regulate. Maybe just don't prevent adversarial interoperability from happening. In an ideal world, a company trying to sue someone who built an unofficial client for their service should be laughed out of the court building and fined for wasting judge's time.

Remember ICQ? The official clients were bloated and generally meh. Many people didn't ever see them, not even once. Almost everyone I knew used QIP, Miranda, Adium, or something else third-party. ICQ the company sometimes broke the protocol and then there was a massive uproar. Then clients got updated and everyone carried on messaging. But the system being involuntarily open like this meant that there were ICQ clients for so many things that wouldn't ever get official treatment otherwise. Basically — if it has a network interface, a screen, a means of text input, and can run arbitrary code, it'd have an ICQ client built for it at some point. There was one in the form of an ELF binary for Siemens phones for example.

No one is asking for a standardized protocol. It is my understanding that what is being asked for here is the documentation of their existing protocol that would allow third-party clients and bridges to be built. And this is an unequivocally good thing.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#338

Post by stevehawk »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #308
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #300

I can't quite wrap my head around why people think that it is a good thing for Apple to be regulated into "opening up" (i.e. as opposed to being a "walled garden" platform). If I were an entrepreneur, and say that I wanted to fork a Unix-like OS so that I could make a cross-device OS for consumer hardware that I, too, make---shouldn't I have the right to program my OS to seamlessly integrate only with the apps and th…

Communication infrastructure is comparable to interstate networks, utilities, etc. If one is serving an appreciable percent of humanity expect to have your work, at least in part, and development avenues, decided for you by the governments representing the people you serve. I believe there is a philosophical misunderstanding here. Your users do not exist to serve your whims. Your projects continued existence is not a…

There's is a near infinite number of competitors to iMessage. There's Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Viber, Kik, Skype, Whatever Google Makes that they'll kill in six months, WeChat, Snapchat, Lime, Telegram... and I'm sure a bunch of others I've never heard of but other people live and die by. Not mention SMS and MMS.

As a result, I don't understand why people are so mad at iMessage that they need it crippled. You're not forced to use it. Apple doesn't block other messaging applications.

Plus, this law in question is a great foot in the door. Wait until they start lowering the monetary valuation of companies to slowly encompass all major messaging apps. At which point they'll have leveraged themselves right into a position of ending E2EE forever.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#339

Post by stevehawk »

iSnow wrote: post #313
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #300

I can't quite wrap my head around why people think that it is a good thing for Apple to be regulated into "opening up" (i.e. as opposed to being a "walled garden" platform). If I were an entrepreneur, and say that I wanted to fork a Unix-like OS so that I could make a cross-device OS for consumer hardware that I, too, make---shouldn't I have the right to program my OS to seamlessly integrate only with the apps and th…

If you are starting to corner the market and are able to use your leverage to block competitors in a way that threatens to undermine their business, then the EU (and to an extend the USA) will regulate you. I can flip your question around and ask "should you have the right to play dirty?". Which is what Apple has been doing, there's exactly zero good reason to not license out access to the protocol. I don't own Apple…

What market have they cornered? They're not even the number one messaging app on the continent that's imposing this rule.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#340

Post by kitsunesoba »

As nice as interoperability (and the accompanying possibility of something like a modern-day Adium) is, I worry that this will introduce SMS' rampant spam problems to iMessage and the various other messaging services that will also be required to open up.

Part of the reason spam is so rare on iMessage is because it requires an iCloud account on an Apple device, which not only raises the barrier to entry significantly but also means that spammers are easily dealt with via account and device serial bans.

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