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Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

independent.co.uk

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Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#291

Post by HyperSane »

argella wrote: post #279
HyperSane wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I know you're really attached to the energy imbalance theory of obesity. " It isn't a theory, it is a fact. It is basic thermodynamics. The human body requires a constant amount of energy for basic operation and activity. Any excess is stored as fat for future use. Creating fat requires calories that HAVE to come from food. Eat few enough calories and you WILL lose weight. Eat zero and you WILL die. Eat 20,000/day f…

"The human body requires a constant amount of energy for basic operation and activity. " no, it doesn't. the amount it uses for basic operation and activity will change. shrinking in response to your attempts to lose weight.

This is absolutely false. The human body must always consume a minimum amount of energy for basic maintenance. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate. While it does vary it also has a hard lower limit.

The basic metabolic rate varies between individuals. One study of 150 adults representative of the population in Scotland reported basal metabolic rates from as low as 1,027 kilocalories (4,300 kJ) per day to as high as 2,499 kilocalories (10,460 kJ); with a mean BMR of 1,500 kilocalories (6,300 kJ) per day.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#292

Post by HyperSane »

kilgnad wrote: post #282
HyperSane wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'll just be blunt. You sound like a fucking idiot for regurgitating something SO OBVIOUS" First, don't be so rude. You think what I'm stating is obvious but there is an entire industry built to deny it. Even on this thread there are people who deny it.

Don't be rude? You compared me to a 9/11 truther. We're done here. I'm rude in response to your rudeness. I'm wrong though, I shouldn't be rude in response to you.. The proper thing to do is to end the conversation. Good day.

"You compared me to a 9/11 truther."

Just because you honestly reminded me of their need for overly complicated explanations of well understood things.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#293

Post by yunwal »

nindalf wrote: post #288
yunwal wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the obvious counterexample is someone who eats 1500 calories of real food and 2500 calories of junk food a day. If you scale that down by half you start getting all sorts of nutrient deficiencies well before hitting your target weight. But there are subtler versions of this. People who live in food deserts, only have access to iceberg lettuce and freezer-burned tomatoes as produce are gonna have a tough time g…

What's the issue with iceberg lettuce?

Nothing wrong with it but it’s pretty devoid of nutrition compared to other greens.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#294

Post by msrenee »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #274
msrenee wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the weight stays off even after 10 years on the drug, then that's great in my book. Nicotine, caffeine, and bariatric surgery all reduce your appetite in the short run, but your body eventually adapts and your weight starts climbing again. Until we've got more than a couple years of data, I'm not holding out hope that this drug won't eventually lose its punch for maintaining a lower weight. The main problem to my…

> How many miracle weight loss drugs have come and gone over the last decade? Realistically, none. These are the only ones that have ever been found to actually work, everything else is either homeopathy or has terrible side effects. I agree that having food that tastes better is the main culprit for the obesity epidemic, but I don't think the answer is making tasty, addictive, food harder to access. Those foods are…

I'm certainly not advocating making those foods more difficult to access. Exactly the opposite, in fact. I think we need to make access to healthier food cheaper and easier.

As far as there being no severe side effects, it looks like semaglutide was looked at for medical use in 2012 and didn't go to clinical trials until 2016. Then there's tirzepatide, which I think is the part that's the big breakthrough recently, wasn't approved for use until the end of 2021. I don't believe we have the data yet to really say that it's safe long-term. I sure hope it is, but this is a very new treatment.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#295

Post by argella »

HyperSane wrote: post #291
argella wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The human body requires a constant amount of energy for basic operation and activity. " no, it doesn't. the amount it uses for basic operation and activity will change. shrinking in response to your attempts to lose weight.

This is absolutely false. The human body must always consume a minimum amount of energy for basic maintenance. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate . While it does vary it also has a hard lower limit. The basic metabolic rate varies between individuals. One study of 150 adults representative of the population in Scotland reported basal metabolic rates from as low as 1,027 kilocalories (4,300 kJ) per…

you said "constant" not minimum. don't move the goal post.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK572145/

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#296

Post by bedast »

runnerup wrote: post #283
bedast wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That it is currently labeled only for Type 2 diabetes is a marketing decision by the manufacturer, not a characteristic of the drug. Regulatory approval. It is a diabetes drug because it has been evaluated as such, including understanding the primary effects and side effects at various dosing levels. Mounjaro is prescribed to diabetics from 2.5mg to 15mg in increments of 2.5mg and titrated based on needs and goals.…

Mounjaro will have FDA approval for obesity this year. GP’s dogmatic stance that “Mounjaro is not an obesity drug!!” is soundly rejected by the available evidence.

Mounjaro will never be approved for obesity. The documentation for dosing is for diabetes. If the trend follows with how Novo Nordisk has released their versions of this, dosing for weight loss will be different than dosing for diabetes care, and so it must be under a whole new label.

Mounjaro is a trade name for a diabetes drug and that won't change. So no, it is not soundly rejected.

It's not as simple as "SQUIRT JUICE INSIDE ME GET THINNER AND CURE DIABETES". There's a lot more to this than you seem to understand.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#297

Post by bedast »

cameronh90 wrote: post #249
LazyMans wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the dramatic effects I’ve noticed is I finally know what being truly hungry feels like. I can differentiate between appetite and hunger. I used to think it was odd how people would turn down food when it’s offered to them. Either my hunger cues were so strong, or my lack of self control has made me absolutely unable to restrict my intake long enough to reduce my weight in a meaningful way. This drug is essenti…

The thing is that, at least as far as we know, these drugs don't have any direct effect on the brain. Any effect they have is apparently from adjusting hormone levels and possibly some metabolic effects. It's also interesting that they were designed to treat diabetes then we also discovered they reduce hunger. My guess is that we may have assumed the cause-effect relationship is more straightforward than it actually…

In my experience, if you're going to use GLP-1 RA for weight loss, it needs to be part of a larger program of changes, including lifestyle changes. That you have to lead the charge on. The people that say losing weight on these means you gotta take it for the rest of your life, they're wrong. It eventually stops having that effect on you. It certainly makes the process of changing things a lot easier, and it buys you a lot of time to adopt those changes. But if you don't put in the mental work and reshape your lifestyle to this new body, you're going to have a bad time later regardless of if you're still on it or not.

I've taken various GLP-1 RA over a decade for glycemic management (I'm on Mounjaro now). They still work great for this. But I have to do the work to maintain my body, now.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#298

Post by HyperSane »

argella wrote: post #295
HyperSane wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely false. The human body must always consume a minimum amount of energy for basic maintenance. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate . While it does vary it also has a hard lower limit. The basic metabolic rate varies between individuals. One study of 150 adults representative of the population in Scotland reported basal metabolic rates from as low as 1,027 kilocalories (4,300 kJ) per…

you said "constant" not minimum. don't move the goal post. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK572145/

When I typed that I was thinking of the basal metabolic rate, which is relatively constant for a person. Think of it as the calories a coma patient would need to stay alive.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#299

Post by bedast »

telotortium wrote: post #256
bedast wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also probably don't want to put significant investment in boosting production knowing that will be temporary since the weight loss effects aren't permanent. As someone who has been on GLP-1 RA for a decade, starting with Victoza, and now on Mounjaro, those weight loss benefits have no effect on me anymore. Delayed gastric emptying and appetite suppression is so far reduced that it might as well not be a thing an…

Perhaps the weight loss would be more permanent with the higher doses that are being approved for the weight loss use case?

You might get a good few years from the drug. You have to still do the work to make the changes permanent.

Re: Diabetes drug Mounjaro was available at $25/month, then increased to $1k/month

#300

Post by m348e912 »

bedast wrote: post #296
runnerup wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mounjaro will have FDA approval for obesity this year. GP’s dogmatic stance that “Mounjaro is not an obesity drug!!” is soundly rejected by the available evidence.

Mounjaro will never be approved for obesity. The documentation for dosing is for diabetes. If the trend follows with how Novo Nordisk has released their versions of this, dosing for weight loss will be different than dosing for diabetes care, and so it must be under a whole new label. Mounjaro is a trade name for a diabetes drug and that won't change. So no, it is not soundly rejected. It's not as simple as "SQUIRT J…

>It's not as simple as SQUIRT JUICE INSIDE ME GET THINNER AND CURE DIABETES

It kind of is that simple. Tirzepatide has three main functions: Hunger suppression, slower digestion, and increased insulin sensitivity.

For a large portion of people who are overweight, this will get them thinner and in some cases reverse t2 diabetes.

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