EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#221

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

mattrighetti wrote: post #165

This sounds nice, but when you really think about the consequences it really is not. Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer? What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp want to implement something "different" that could make messaging better but this policy is making things harder to implement because it would be impossible to make it interoperate with other messaging apps? I don't get w…

You come up with some unknown theoretical magical features which will suddenly make it impossible to implement due to this ruling. That's not what this is about, and I think everybody on this forum understands a bit too well the current situation on the market, and the reason for this ruling.

I couldn't care less if Apple is 'owned' or not, its nothing special to me compared to all other corporations. Having at least a bit compatible messengers is definitely something positive, its quite a mental gymnastics to immediately try to come up with some theoretical reasons why this shouldn't happen at all (and failing at that). If apple didn't do typical apple thing to create its own standards and share it with nobody, they wouldn't be hammered by regulators 15 years down the line (lightning port, now this, we will see what comes next, plenty of topics to pick up).

Apple knew very well this will eventually come, same for USB, but they made it into operational cost of having some sort of advantage to get more income till its stopped. Now correction happens. You regulate such thing because clearly corporations only care about profits. And markets, as wonderful as they are, always put money on the first place so waiting for them to move corps into more considering-society territory is often a fruitless effort unless you have gigatons of patience.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#222

Post by mattrighetti » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #209

mattrighetti wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulations are the only tool that society has to prevent companies acting against the social good. The fallacy here is that you don't get to decide what "social good" is, especially in this case. People get to choose what is good for them, we're talking about tech products here. I see regulations in this specific case as something that goes against progress, whatever that means for the company of your favorite mes…

> [..] you don't get to decide what "social good" is Well, technically I have a say, I elect my leaders and can write to them with my opinion. Often it is the case that salesmen and charletons get into those positions but the basic premise of those positions is that they're intended to act in the social good. What you propose is that somehow tech companies will act in the social good by themselves, which I find parti…

> The only antidote to this is regulations.

Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer that regulations disproportionately hurt smaller businesses in the long run because those giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments and they usually have thousands of smart lawyers ready to find holes and exploit/get around regulations made, usually, by people that does not understand the subject enough.

Want to take a guess and see who does not have thousands of smart lawyers?

Just FYI: We have the Apple's example with USB-C ready to showcase this exact thing.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#223

Post by Pxtl » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

Raed667 wrote: post #127

There was a brief period of time where I was able to use IRC, Facebook and MSN from the same client: Pidgin https://pidgin.im/

My fave was Miranda-IM. Windows-only but did a wonderful job of sticking to native windows API and so was very lightweight and native-feeling in an era when that really mattered for performance.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#224

Post by danrl » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

A convenient first step for European governments towards killing effective end-to-end cryptography usage in everyday messaging. It used to be checks notes „terrorism“ and „child safety“ and now the hot new thing is „interoperability“. Who would have thought, that of all the above, „interoperability“ would be the one that makes it into legislation.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#225

Post by yoz-y » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

Looking at the amount of applications I have in the messaging folder on my iPhone, it doesn't seem to me that opening up iMessage is that necessary. From what I understand in the US it's more common for people who have iPhones to stick to iMessage but in Europe not so much.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#226

Post by bilkow » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

tekknik wrote: post #205

rkangel wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution I use to minimise this is Element One ( https://element.io/element-one ). This is a paid for service that operates bridges from Matrix to Signal, WhatsApp and Telegram. I then get to communicate with all those contacts in one place (I'm on Android so iMessage not a problem). I signed up the moment it came out and they had some teething reliability problems for a while, but it's been great for months now.…

Matrix comes up quite often here. Tell me why, even as a nerd, I want to run a server and get my friends and family to join to chat, instead of them opening the built in app and just having at. This is a non-starter.

> Tell me why, even as a nerd, I want to run a server Apparently you don't want to, which is fine. Just use a publicly available server, there are many out there including matrix.org.

But if you wanted to, you could. It's about control.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#227

Post by piffey » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

ohgodplsno wrote: post #163

namdnay wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Id say is that today anyone who wants to sell a “smart” product has to write a proper clean iOS app that gets reviewed. Tomorrow I can guarantee they will immediately cut costs and ship out piles of sideloaded garbage Sure, it’s up to the consumer to choose, but they’re not going to write that on the package

Just like happens daily on Androi... nevermind, it doesn't happen. Beautiful strawman you've built yourself there.

Actually yes it does. 3rd party app stores is where the majority of Android malware comes from. The vast majority of mobile malware is all Android for this reason. Whenever I need low hanging fruit for mobile malware analysis it’s always start at a third party Android App Store. It’s a dumpster fire.

iOS’ advantage is it’s walled garden. It’s a place where a lot of trust is curated for the nontechnical. This evaporates that.

What appears good for the highly technical is not always good for the user.

We can’t be expecting grandmothers to check signatures, ensure an app has certificates pinned, trust that a company won’t let its update domains lapse, and understand public key crypto to set up their GPG keys for a messaging alternative much less handle them properly. Hell I’ve had senior engineers send me their private GPG key when requesting their public key.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#228

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

mattrighetti wrote: post #191

dijit wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] without actually realising that it is actually going to make things worse, that's what regulation does in most cases. Feels like a uniquely american take. Companies that are maliciously compliant are not the norm. Leaving behind that most is an ambiguous enough term that means you could basically discredit anything I come up with, how do you feel about regulations that limit the use of harmful or toxic chemic…

> Regulations are the only tool that society has to prevent companies acting against the social good. The fallacy here is that you don't get to decide what "social good" is, especially in this case. People get to choose what is good for them, we're talking about tech products here. I see regulations in this specific case as something that goes against progress, whatever that means for the company of your favorite mes…

[deleted]

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#229

Post by sofixa » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

codethief wrote: post #119

Does anyone know whether there's any implication for Signal? Will they have to comply as well and make their app interoperable with other messaging apps?

No, because the regulation would only apply to market-leading "gatekeepers", with thresholds for revenues after which it would apply, so Signal are safe.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#230

Post by Pxtl » Thu, Mar 02, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

willyt wrote: post #86

If everyone's messaging has to be compatible with everyone else's then maybe we will finally only need one messaging app on our phones again instead of 5. Sounds great. I just want to be able to send messages without thinking about which app I need to go into to communicate with a particular person; that really breaks my flow when I'm trying to get something done. I don't give a shit about any features apart from pic…

I wish somebody had stolen the Windows Phone idea of linking all the socials to the Contacts system, so if you want to message a person you go through Contacts and it would show their full unified social history. It would be simple to expand this so their preferred contact app is up top on their contact page. Remove the messengers from your home-screen altogether and start from Contacts.