Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#11

Post by derekja » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 6:23 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #5

derekja wrote: post #4

I was at MSFT for a decade or so and several times saw folks who turned down the first offer get a second offer that was much more to their liking. The hiring manager has to really want you in order to push back sufficiently with HR, but if you're unhappy with the offer and willing to risk losing the job I've seen it pay off...

willing to risk losing the job In almost all cases, the original offer is still on the table. "Negotiating with the decisionmaker will cost me this offer, so don't negotiate" is something which is only really believed by engineers who are -- and I say this with love -- abominably incompetent at negotiation. This is regrettable, since skill at negotiation matters a whole heck of a lot more than skill with Chef or mast…

It's hard in a big company in that the decision maker is really the hiring manager, but HR protocol gets in the way. So if the prospective hire is unhappy with the offer they have to formally decline it and then the hiring manager has to come back at HR to get them to tender a better offer. Things can happen in that process - other candidates, having to change leveling to reach the desired offer, etc. If your decision maker is the one actually in charge of the whole process then I absolutely agree that there is no downside to negotiating. Look forward to your blog post!

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#12

Post by gergles » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 6:31 AM UTC

The advice about "disclose your salary because companies are honest and fair actors" is still incorrect. Companies are entering into a business deal with you, and they will negotiate it like they negotiate every other business deal - trying to pay as little as possible for the product they want.

The author of this post, as a recruiter, is incentivized to get you to disclose your salary (see the excellent post by patio11 above). It is still never to your advantage to do so, unless you are grossly overpaid.

The point about not signing NDAs/IPAs is good, and you may be able to negotiate these (I negotiated away the most onerous part of the IPA at my current job by simply lining through the offensive part and initialing, but you may not be that lucky.)

The general advice for any negotiation is still "he who says a number first loses" and you should still go into it with that mindset, regardless of who you're talking to (a recruiter, a hiring manager, HR, whatever.)

Your past salaries have nothing to do with what you will cost the new employer, and software people absolutely have to learn this if we ever want each other to be able to negotiate effectively and raise the salary floor.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#13

Post by xiaoma » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 7:36 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #5

derekja wrote: post #4

I was at MSFT for a decade or so and several times saw folks who turned down the first offer get a second offer that was much more to their liking. The hiring manager has to really want you in order to push back sufficiently with HR, but if you're unhappy with the offer and willing to risk losing the job I've seen it pay off...

willing to risk losing the job In almost all cases, the original offer is still on the table. "Negotiating with the decisionmaker will cost me this offer, so don't negotiate" is something which is only really believed by engineers who are -- and I say this with love -- abominably incompetent at negotiation. This is regrettable, since skill at negotiation matters a whole heck of a lot more than skill with Chef or mast…

As someone who's been on the other side of the table (in multiple businesses), I really can't agree. In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly, and especially in start-ups and small businesses, cost is a major concern. In larger businesses or governmental organizations, HR regulations and bureaucracy become a major factor.

I've personally filtered out dozens if not hundreds of otherwise qualified people due to salary concerns without a second thought. In two cases within the last six months I've seen the party who pushed for a higher salary reach out again only to find the position filled.

My guess is that you've never experienced an employer's market. It may not be one in silicon valley, but it is for most engineers around the world. Being a white guy in Japan, and then a guy with a popular blog following, you've had a far, far different experience than a typical engineer.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#14

Post by kibibyte » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 8:17 AM UTC

I have seen a lot of posts and advice like this about increasing your starting salary by negotiating with your recruiter. However, I am a college student looking for an internship. How much of a negotiating position would I have? Is it even advisable for me to try negotiating, considering that I'm only a college intern?

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#15

Post by bermanoid » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 8:26 AM UTC

Does anyone here have any experience (and advice about) negotiating against intellectual property clauses? I'm particularly interested in whether fairly large companies are ever willing to give these up, or if it's just part of the price one has to pay for accepting employment.

Right now I'm working as a consultant with a team that keeps trying to convince me to consider coming in-house; up until recently, moving wasn't an option for family reasons, but now, it's become more realistic. It's a great team that I really enjoy working with, and I'm sure that the offer would be more than fair (my current consulting rate implies a pretty tight range for an offer, one that's in line with what they pay their engineers currently), but unfortunately, they are a subsidiary of BigCorp, and I know for a fact that BigCorp places some restrictions on outside projects, and that makes me nervous - having had to aggressively edit my consulting contract so that it was reasonable (to be fair, they accepted those edits without undue drama), I'm all but sure that their employment contracts are going to be very restrictive, and likely include full IP transfer clauses, not to mention long term non-competes and NDAs. State of California, if it matters.

Is it a complete pipe dream to hope that I might be able to get them to strike some of those restrictions, or will some big companies play ball on those matters? Non-compete clauses that terminate after a reasonable period I can (reluctantly) accept, but losing the ability to do open source work and/or my own projects would be too much for me, I'd rather just keep on keeping on as a consultant...

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#16

Post by roel_v » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 9:53 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #6

Prospective employers want your current salary so they can get a bead on what the negotiating floor is. Most prospective employers hear "$80k" and immediately assume "we can get this person for $88k". You might be worth $90k, $95k, or $110k, but once you said "$80k", you gave the prospective employer's HR team an excuse to play hardball: they know they're not going to insult you, even if their opening offer is $20k l…

I don't think the article said 'current salary', it was talking about 'how much do you want'. Those two are different - when you're the first to name a number of how much you want, you can anchor the discussion.

Of course when you run into a company who feels they should pay you according to what you made in your previous job, they'll think the two are within 10% or so of each other. I think it's fair to never name how much you make now, but being the first to say a number isn't always a bad thing, I think, especially in today's market (and assuming that one has a good insight into one's market value).

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#17

Post by mmavnn » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 9:56 AM UTC

kibibyte wrote: post #14

I have seen a lot of posts and advice like this about increasing your starting salary by negotiating with your recruiter. However, I am a college student looking for an internship. How much of a negotiating position would I have? Is it even advisable for me to try negotiating, considering that I'm only a college intern?

Yes. Be polite, have an accurate view of what your time is worth and be open about what you're asking and why.

People may not want (or have the authority) to change the deal, but if they are offended by you asking you do not want to work with them. It implies they are looking for a drone, not a real human being.

I've worked in several local government jobs in the UK, where budget (and 'Single Status payscale') constraints mean that the hiring manager normally doesn't have the authority to change the salary offered. Just asking the question has still given me an invaluable insight into the manager's way of thinking.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#18

Post by Peroni » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 10:03 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #7

Drbble wrote: post #3

This article contradicts the single largest pro-employee piece of wisdom ("don't walk up to the table with your cards showing") without providing any supporting argument. What does your salary in an unrelated job have any relevance at all to another company? Any company that asks the question has shown that it is not "worth its salt" and so the "trust me" advice immediately dissolves. I told my personally retained re…

To pile cynicism on top of cynicism, remember that recruiters have the same incentive structure as real estate agents: they make their money on deal flow, so they're motivated to spend as little time on you as possible. Giving a recruiter your current salary allows them to be choosy about where they send you. It may keep you away from lower-paid opportunities, but also might keep you away from more senior roles. Not…

I had originally included a lengthy argument against disclosing your salary to recruiters and I agree with you completely. That element was removed due to the fact that the post was aimed at graduates who most likely won't have to deal with recruiters for a number of years.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#19

Post by Peroni » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 10:18 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #8

tptacek wrote: post #6

Prospective employers want your current salary so they can get a bead on what the negotiating floor is. Most prospective employers hear "$80k" and immediately assume "we can get this person for $88k". You might be worth $90k, $95k, or $110k, but once you said "$80k", you gave the prospective employer's HR team an excuse to play hardball: they know they're not going to insult you, even if their opening offer is $20k l…

Without implying any bad will about the author of this post, who is a recruiter, recruiters are incentivized to close deals, not to get you the best possible package. It is possible that this background would convince a recruiter that advice which is against your interests is still a good idea, because if he adopts advice which will predictably results in employees underpricing themselves, his conversion rate from in…

I can see where you are coming from but ultimately I disagree. The strong counter-argument in the comments here has prompted me to write a follow-up post clarifying my position in detail so hopefully that will help eradicate the notion that I would weaken a candidates negotiating position for my own benefit regardless of whether I do it consciously or otherwise.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#20

Post by tobiasSoftware » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 11:22 AM UTC

bermanoid wrote: post #15

Does anyone here have any experience (and advice about) negotiating against intellectual property clauses? I'm particularly interested in whether fairly large companies are ever willing to give these up, or if it's just part of the price one has to pay for accepting employment. Right now I'm working as a consultant with a team that keeps trying to convince me to consider coming in-house; up until recently, moving was…

I really want an answer to this too. I just graduated, am nearly broke so I need my first job. However, I have several ideas for a startup that I want to implement soon, I'm at the point where I can have a working business within a couple months. The problem is that I know getting a startup to the point where you can live off of it will take much longer, thus I NEED a real job, and want the startup just to be a few hours a week on the side for the next couple years. However, this startup is my life dream, I don't care if I can't live off of it but I need to get it out there and see what happens at least, and I am pretty sure I would turn down a job if it prevented me from doing that. So I'm kind of stuck if companies will truly demand me to turn over any programming that I do during my employment with them.