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No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

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Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#111
post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

What has changed since the 1970s is a greater proportion of productivity improvement has gone to capital vs labour. This means working people have to work much harder for comparatively less. Ascribing the resulting unhappiness to departing from some sort of communal idyll where young people 'knew their place' is rather regressive I'd suggest.

Not communal idyll but a shift in expectations.

The internet, social media, higher living standards, globalization, etc. all of these things have moved people out of their local bubble and into a global worldview. It's much easier to be depressed when your expectations are 10x those of your parents or grandparents because you are now growing up in a more stable time and have more exposure to what is possible.

There will be exceptions but talk to older boomers or ideally the silent gen then talk to a recent college grad. I'm not playing "whose suffering is the greatest" or "greater suffering invalidates lesser suffering" but there is a massive difference in perspective and expectations.

I fall into the expectations trap myself and talking to older family members helps me get grounded, avoid doom-spiraling, and appreciate the freedom and opportunities that exist today.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#112
post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

Certainly to be an unpopular take: It's the God-shaped hole in western hearts. While religious affiliation has been in decline since the mid-1970s, the rate of decline between 2017-2022 has sharply accelerated [1]. The distribution of previously-religious but now unaffiliated skews heavily to the younger age brackets [2]. Younger generations are simple much less religious than older generations. Therefore, (American)…

I'm not religious but I think about this often. I know multiple young families that aren't "very religious" but seek out a church as soon as they move to a new place, for the community.

There are some secular community groups and activities but nothing that really replaces organized religion. Especially in the way that a church community cuts through a cross-section of society while most other communities are organized around more specific subsets and interests.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#113

Article spends entire time "debunking" a political pundit who posts "hot takes" on Twitter, doesn't interview a single teen. Maybe, just maybe, the answer is multi-faceted. Maybe we should take the things kids say at face value if we want to pretend that we are being intellectually honest. Sure, humans are notoriously bad at describing their own qualia and reasons for why they feel the things they do, but listening s…

As a neoliberal/capitalist, I would suggest that capitalism is an incomplete theory and that we are still flushing things out. The huge rise in material standard of living from the 1850s to 1970s in the US made a dramatic improvement in people’s real quality of life. But since the 70s the improvements are very marginal. I speculate that’s because most of the consumer improvements are in the domain of status consumpti…

This is the shift from "capitalism efficiently allocating resources to fulfill needs" to "capitalism manufacturing wants".

Would appreciate reading recommendations in this area if anyone has any.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a neoliberal/capitalist, I would suggest that capitalism is an incomplete theory and that we are still flushing things out. The huge rise in material standard of living from the 1850s to 1970s in the US made a dramatic improvement in people’s real quality of life. But since the 70s the improvements are very marginal. I speculate that’s because most of the consumer improvements are in the domain of status consumpti…

Can't agree that the improvements since the 70s have been marginal. The internet is one of the greatest quality of life improvements humanity has ever created, especially relative to its cost.

On the whole I would disagree.

1. Humans seem to do best in social groups of ~50 people. Connecting everyone to everyone doesn’t seem to be working very well from a societal standpoint.

2. https://www.theonion.com/report-90-of-waking-hours-spent-sta...

Does the internet make us more productive? Sure. Does this improve the human condition? Not clear. Will the sum total gains eventually outweigh the costs? Maybe. But then again, it may also destroy civilization. Generative AI distributed over the internet has the capability to unravel everything.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of the article is that, although in general economic conditions can negatively impact mental health, in this case the increase in mental health problems does not coincide with a deterioration in overall economic conditions.

The point of the article seems more like NY Mag getting clicks by having one of their writers throw together a rebuttal to some recently popular tweets. I think the lack of seriousness is highlighted by the paragraph I quoted along with other bits from the author like this one: >Thus it is possible that the social pathologies cited by Lorenz are preconditions for today’s mental-health crisis. and >It’s possible that…

It is repackaging the case being made that social media is the key driver for the startling increase in mental health problems.

And the evidence for that case seems to grow stronger by the day.

Beyond that, it’s simply good writing style to address the strong points of the argument you want to rebut, before rebutting it. You seem to be set on finding on something more nefarious than that going on here.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you disagree with this statement? > Whatever caused young people in the U.S. to develop higher rates of mental illness over the past two decades, it was not an objective collapse in living standards, employment prospects, or opportunities for material security. What numbers or objective data can you put forward to refute it? Imagine a short story where a man gets a diagnosis of an incurable, terminal disease certa…

I disagree with the statement. It privileges economic factors over social factors, environmental factors, sexual factors. If it's easier today to inaccurately broadcast doom, then that is an indication that life got objectively worse in one respect. There are plenty of distopian SF societies that are wonderful from an economic basis, but horrific from another basis ( Brave New World is the most famous, but by far not…

As far as I can tell you are agreeing with the statement, as you agree that factors other than the economy must be driving the increase in unhappiness.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the article seems more like NY Mag getting clicks by having one of their writers throw together a rebuttal to some recently popular tweets. I think the lack of seriousness is highlighted by the paragraph I quoted along with other bits from the author like this one: >Thus it is possible that the social pathologies cited by Lorenz are preconditions for today’s mental-health crisis. and >It’s possible that…

It is repackaging the case being made that social media is the key driver for the startling increase in mental health problems. And the evidence for that case seems to grow stronger by the day. Beyond that, it’s simply good writing style to address the strong points of the argument you want to rebut, before rebutting it. You seem to be set on finding on something more nefarious than that going on here.

“Writing flashy headlines for less than groundbreaking content” isn’t a nefarious conspiracy, it’s just a hallmark of kind of mediocre media. It’s not some big conspiracy, it’s just boring.

If I were to write an article about how I think [person a] could possibly be right or wrong about [topic x] for understandably valid reasons in either direction, I wouldn’t title it “No, [opinion of person a on topic x] is wrong” because that would be stupid.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#118
post #71
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> True -- but by the same token, it was possible to "work your way through college". This is largely impossible now. It can be done, if you are willing to do Community College and then head to a state university to finish up. We asked our friend's daughter, who was choosing which college to attend about going to a local state university. She replied, "what do I tell my friends?" as in it was beneath her. Which was fu…

That depends on where you are, I think. Community colleges are certainly less expensive, but they are very expensive nonetheless. And state colleges are often not much cheaper than others. The cost of education across the board has risen to an insane level, well above the rate of inflation.

True, I'm from California where Community College is currently free for all high school graduates. When I went, it was cheap enough to be basically free.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#119
So the author spent the article responding to Twitter takes from journalists and looking at stats from economists who are pretty much all old and financially secure... I didn't see anywhere where the author looked at what teenagers themselves say is bothering them, either with interviews or studies. Maybe we should get their opinion before concluding that they're being irrational?

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What has changed since the 1970s is a greater proportion of productivity improvement has gone to capital vs labour. The evidence just doesn't support this. There are analyses that purport to, but they look at wages rather than total compensation (including benefits)

Do you think adding ~10k/year/person for very good group health insurance[0] fully closes that gap? I recall the divergence being a good deal larger than that. At the median, that's about a 20% boost in wages; still doesn't close the gap here, for instance: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ [0] 2020-2021 prices from a previous employer's details

This chart tracks the income (including benefits) of "production/nonsupervisory workers" and compares it to per capita GDP. This is not quite the same claim as the one I was replying to, which is that labor in general gets a smaller share of the national income than it used to.
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