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No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

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Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#81
post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

Life was objectively better than it was during the 2019 than during the great recession. If anything is gaslighting, it's denying that reality. That period of time is also when teen suicides started dramatically increasing. Many people notice that it also coincides with the rise of social media, so that's an obvious culprit, and scientists have conducted studies that suggest that this may be the case. However, that's not good enough for far leftists, so they weaponize issues like teen suicides and global warming to raise awareness to class consciousness, despite having no objective data supporting the notion that abolishing capitalism will somehow fix these issues.

Let's say a service is written Go, but it's inefficient. Some engineers are diagnosing the problem. It's not helpful to deny their work by proclaiming that Go is shit, and any solution that doesn't involve rewriting the service in Rust is counterproductive, especially when you know that very few people would agree with you.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#82
post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

Do you disagree with this statement? > Whatever caused young people in the U.S. to develop higher rates of mental illness over the past two decades, it was not an objective collapse in living standards, employment prospects, or opportunities for material security. What numbers or objective data can you put forward to refute it? Imagine a short story where a man gets a diagnosis of an incurable, terminal disease certa…

> living standards, employment prospects, ...

Is it possible that dividing GDP by population isn't a good indicator of whether "life got objectively worse" for people living in conditions of increasing inequality?

Perhaps the prospect of juggling three gig jobs that can disappear in an instant, while still not being able to pay for rent and healthcare, isn't an ideal "employment prospect".

Or perhaps the data cited in the article isn't granular enough to point at root causes. Yes, young people are depressed and anxious. But when we understand that persistent sadness and hopelessness is far more prevalent among teen girls than teen boys, now we can look at what's different for girls than boys.

One hint is that among teens, the vast majority of minutes spent on Instagram are by girls, not boys. Boys are online a lot too, but gaming is a different social and behavioral animal.

And most studies looking for correlations between social media usage and mental health are flawed, because they are typically dose-response studies. If individuals who consume 15 meals a week of fast food have greater rates of diabetes than individuals who never eat fast food, then that's a good correlation (though not necessarily causation)!

But that method fails for social media, because social media is a collective activity. Girls who spend five hours a day on Instagram are mediating relationships through the app and neglecting in-person social activity, and we know that's unhealthy.

But girls who stay off social media are out of the loop, socially isolated, probably ostracized for being weird, because their friends are still on it for five hours a day.

High rates of social media usage damage both frequent users and infrequent users, so it's hard to see that in dose-response correlations.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#83
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the statement. It privileges economic factors over social factors, environmental factors, sexual factors. If it's easier today to inaccurately broadcast doom, then that is an indication that life got objectively worse in one respect. There are plenty of distopian SF societies that are wonderful from an economic basis, but horrific from another basis ( Brave New World is the most famous, but by far not…

> If it's easier today to inaccurately broadcast doom, then that is an indication that life got objectively worse in one respect. This is just conveniently redefining what most people mean when they talk about objective factors. I tend to agree that this ability to broadcast doom is an explanatory factor and it makes life worse, but to claim this is an objective explanatory factor is problematic I think, at least wit…

> This is just conveniently redefining what most people mean when they talk about objective factors.

I disagree. People have complained about the increase in television channels and shows leading to a breakdown in the cohesiveness of society. Broadcast technologies (along with the related rabbit-hole and bubble effects) are definitely an aspect of "objective factors" that people talk about.

> People tend to think of issues that impact mental health as somehow less objective, because mental health is itself subjective.

Personal mental health is subjective in much the same way that personal ability to find a place to sleep (from couch surfing to buying a mansion) is subjective (and becoming harder due to demographics and new construction deficits).

Social mental health (sociology) is an objectively measurable criterion. As indicated by the link in my edit to the post you are responding to.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#84
post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

> The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse?

It could be an indicator that there is a perception that life is worse, which may drive action regardless of whether it is objectively true - and social media may be the primary vector for spreading that perception.

Let’s face it, “life is better/worse” is an absurdly one-dimensional judgement given how complex everyone’s lives are. Even if there was a way of measuring an accurate quality of life trend, I expect it is far more likely that people’s perceptions are shaped by their media inputs than by reviewing actual data.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#85
post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

Suicide is not necessarily a sign life is worse. It can also be a sign suicide is perceived as “normal”.

Look at the occurrences of suicides on the Golden Gate Bridge. When newspapers talked about it, it spiked. They made a pact not to talk about it, it tanked.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#86
post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

What percentage people owned their own homes back then, and what percentage of income did people they spend on their houses mortgages? I'm willing to bet those statistics are telling.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#87
post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

It's pretty clear that social media is a leading cause of the increase in suicide, because it certainly isn't anything else measurable in the data.

Every single study on social media use shows how destructive it is for the psyche but we're supposed to pretend that's not related to the increases in depression and suicide? Why?

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#88
post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

Certainly to be an unpopular take: It's the God-shaped hole in western hearts. While religious affiliation has been in decline since the mid-1970s, the rate of decline between 2017-2022 has sharply accelerated [1]. The distribution of previously-religious but now unaffiliated skews heavily to the younger age brackets [2]. Younger generations are simple much less religious than older generations.

Therefore, (American) culture has changed with the decline of religion in a very unfortunate way. Religion created communities and communities supported families and people in emotional, physical, and economic terms. That support system is eroding at an increasing rate. Then beyond that at an individual level, meaning and contentment now rely on the individual creating meaning or deriving it from some worldly source instead of coming from a higher power. Then when that source lets down the person, nihilism becomes attractive. So what is someone to do? In American politics you can only rely on the government less than half the time. Even the best non-profit and civic organizations are prone to corruption. If the person looks inward what happens when they let themselves down? Like it or not, religious modalities play a fundamental part in Western psychology - in other words, people need "a bigger reason" than themselves. Anecdotally the young people in my church (as far as I know) are the happiest young people I know - much happier than many of the children at my kids' school and friends' kids.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/site...

[2] https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/the-decline-of-...

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#89
post #73
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were no federal student loans. This is a hilarious one to include on your list because it shows you are missing the forest for the trees. Federal student loans didn't exist because they didn't need to exist as college was cheaper, living a middle class life didn't require college, and low paying jobs still paid a high enough percentage of living costs to allow people to pay their way through college by workin…

Colleges may have been cheaper 50 years ago, but it was also roughly half as common to go to college. It was especially uncommon for women and POC to enroll. Overall, the government is subsidizing colleges more, but the subsidy is spread thinner. In-state tuition without assistance tends to be $6000-12,000, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things. As a slight tangent, student loans and grants tend to be the le…

In-state tuition without assistance tends to be $6000-12,000 _per year_. My college bill is ~$11.5k/yr at a state school (not including housing, which I pay $1200/mo for - above average for college but dead average for 1b apartments).

Working for my university's housing and dining services (a major employer of students), I would make $8.50/hr my first year, with potential $0.25-$0.50 raises each year. At $8.50/hr, it would take 1350 hours to pay for my tuition alone before taxes. Full time employees work 2080 hours/yr but also get paid vacation while student employees do not.

So I would argue that state school tuition is a bit much in the grand scheme of things.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#90
post #31

I personally think that mental health in teens is deteriorating because western society throws teenagers into adulthood and forces adult decision-making choices upon them with nearly constant propaganda. Look at all the shit that's happening at school where kids are advised not tell their parents about certain, sometimes even life-altering, decisions they're struggling with. The social media aspect of it adds fuel to…

> kids are advised not tell their parents about certain, sometimes even life-altering, decisions they're struggling with

As a parent of a teen a huge part of this comes from the experienced shared by their friends. When a kiddo shares that they're struggling with a life-altering decision with a parent they're taking a risk they will be disowned, kicked out, or that the decision isn't theirs to make and that their parent is the sole-authority on their decision making.

When they share it with a teacher in confidence, the risk of the above occurring are less. Kiddos aren't dumb; they're minimaxing[1] - reducing the possibility of worse case outcomes.

When they share it with their friends, they absolutely pass around stories of the kiddo that went to their parents and now has to live with an aunt or grandparent now because that other kid made the decision to confide in their parents.

Let's be frank, there are certain lines folks have, which if their kiddo came to them for support in those cases, they would tell them wasn't metaphysically possible.

We would all like to believe that parents have infinite grace with their kids, but there are real life case that get shared amongst kids, that serve as living counter-examples.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax

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