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Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

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Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#51
post #40

Is something happening to the quality of this community lately? Personally I like the ass-comment (cue hackers fainting in the audience). There's some passion and lifeblood in it that I'm missing on HN for a while. And he's obviously making a point beyond name-calling (the point I disagree with, just for the record). What I'm growing tired of is quite the opposite. It's the politeness-police that demands fluffy paddi…

I've been here for several years and one of the things that initially drew me here was the way people were respectful, on topic, and focused on the issues in a dispassionate way. If you want passion, there's plenty of it on the internet. The people with self control and an analytical bent are hard to come by and are thusly valued. Calling pg an ass is crossing the line for this community. Not because he's privileged,…

Everything you say is correct, but there's a middle-ground between "youtube comments" and "lifeless group-think".

There's still interesting discussion on HN for me (otherwise I wouldn't be here), but I'm finding it's drifting towards the latter. Now recently with a monthly meta-discussion bemoaning its own demise.

Name-calling is obviously not the way to go. But the immortal words of Dr. Strangelove aren't either: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#52
post #2

The quality of comments has been declining very gradually for years. There's a lot we already do about it, and probably other techniques that are yet undiscovered. This is somewhat uncharted territory. I'm medium hopeful.

Out of curiosity, has there been any exchange (either formal or informal) of ideas and/or data with other organizations which suffer from the same issue?

Quora, which spoke very openly about the problem of mantaining a high standard of quality in spite of growth, is a prime example since the structured Q&A format makes inadequacies even more evident; as of today, it seems hard not to think that their efforts could simply fail. (If you are interested in this specific case, take a look at http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_can_quora_balance_q... or, for a longer read, http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_quora/all/1)

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#53
post #17

Is something happening to the quality of this community lately? I opened up my username account here 1161 days ago, after lurking once in a while for at least several weeks beforehand. As far as I know, NO ONE has read every Hacker News comment exhaustively for years, although some members of the curating team and some of the high-karma participants may come pretty close to reading most of the most active threads. My…

We read all comments that get sufficiently negative scores. So I have a decent handle on how bad that kind of bad comment is. What worries me more is bad (= mean and/or stupid) comments that actually get upvoted.

Are you most worried about snarky or rude comments occasionally getting upvoted, or the seeming proliferation of content-free comments? I ask because the rude/mean upvoted comments, though disturbing, are thankfully fairly rare. The content-free comments, on the other hand, seem to be becoming more frequent and less downvoted. Do you think the problems are distinct, or do they both follow from some other change in the community?

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#54
post #2

The quality of comments has been declining very gradually for years. There's a lot we already do about it, and probably other techniques that are yet undiscovered. This is somewhat uncharted territory. I'm medium hopeful.

A few years ago, posting on HN felt like posting to a small community. Reputation and civility seemed to matter a lot. When people posted something offensive or rude, they were sanctioned to the point that they would often delete the offending comment. (I remember deleting a comment I made on an old account merely because, without tone, it seemed inflammatory; I felt compelled to delete it even though it had no malic…

I agree that participation should be limited. I understand the desire for open posting but, in my opinion, it's been shown to be a failure by its inability to deal with content decay(both in posts and comments). It's time to experiment with new social designs.

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#55
I'm going to toss a totally crazy idea out there, but it may be crazy enough to work long term.

Create an official Hacker News API where every Hacker News client has an API key and plan on offering write access only through the API. This would permit a diversity of interfaces, from browser based apps to terminal based apps. Monitor quality level of the posts per developer API key. Revoke or throttle write access of a client which doesn't maintain a high post quality count.

For example, I would imagine that a client built for vim or emacs would have a high level of quality and that a browser based client would have a lower level of quality. Developers of clients which contribute a lower level of quality would have the burden of solving the quality problem. Basically "push" the problem to the clients. After all that is the origin of of the word "problem" (Old French probleme, via Latin from Greek problēma, from proballein ‘put forth,’ from pro ‘before’ + ballein ‘to throw.’) "Throw" or "put forth" the problem for other developers to solve.

Hacker News would be better off if you could only contribute to it via an interface likely to be used only by hackers. This strategy is not unlike those employed by companies when they require you to submit your resume via curl or to hack into an unsecured server to upload your resume.

Will we lose access to some types of content, like design focused posts? Maybe. Would it be worth it? Maybe. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

Personally, I would rather see 25% percent as many contributions of extremely high quality than as many contributions as we have today of lower quality.

It's not poor quality contribution overload. It's filter failure ;)

http://blip.tv/web2expo/web-2-0-expo-ny-clay-shirky-shirky-c...

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#57
post #36
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the comments, I'm more concerned about the submissions. Look at the front page right now, and see how many items are not "Hacker News" even with a very lax definition of "stuff that's interesting specifically to hackers." For example: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3497331

It's clear why this happens. The people interested in fuzzy, quasi-political or "outrage" issues are passionately engaged with them. People are less passionate about the debate over the worst-case complexity of hash table lookups. At a step's remove, it's evident that the topics HN was intended to cover are systemically disadvantaged compared to whatever the moment's advocacy topics are --- and every moment has at le…

There are geopolitical/economics issues that are as important to hackers as algorithms. This past week, of SOPA, PIPA, OPEN, ACTA and other less beloved acronyms are of at least some interest for hackers because they directly impact our ability to hack things, to the point of having pg reminding us that the long-entrenched entertainment industry is ripe for disruptive innovation.

Here we find people of diverse tastes. I am an engineer and, given the possibility, I'd be designing processor architectures and instruction sets. I also like programming - and do it for a living, but I have lost some of my taste for algorithms and data structures and prefer to generate competitive differentials elsewhere on the stack. But I am also very worried by the political background, both here in South America, where I live, in Europe, where my ancestors came from, and with the US, which is a very fine country where a lot of dear friends live and that we shouldn't allow to be ruined by a bunch of crazy people. When I was a teenager, I read 1984 and the idea something like that could happen scared me a lot. It still does. Bad politics is contagious.

I think all is fine, as long as we remain civilized and don't forget to disagree in constructive ways. Community and relationships are important too - I have only one nickname, after all, one which is easily identifiable. All my friends know who I am, where I came from and what my opinions tend to be. I like to think that, in the many times we disagreed about things, we never ourselves a bad example.

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#58
post #2

The quality of comments has been declining very gradually for years. There's a lot we already do about it, and probably other techniques that are yet undiscovered. This is somewhat uncharted territory. I'm medium hopeful.

Most long-term forum members of any forum tend to think that the forum is degrading over time. I don't know why, and I'm not accusing anyone of being a certain way, it's just a pattern that I've noticed and want to point out, although I have no explanation for it.

I think that HN is set up to only be as 'good' as the users, and I know that this is true of any community, but there are still issues that often spur from differing opinions no matter how awesome the community is. I believe that the best way to combat something that you don't approve of is to just ignore it. I think that the comments that people consider unfit for HN are few and when ignored will make the poster consider changing his posting technique to gain more popularity and give weight to his words, because after all we all want to be heard. That being said, is the present that much different from the past?

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=143148

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#59
post #11

"ass" doesn't seem to be that extreme...rude yes...but not that "bad". Didn't see that particular discussion, so might have been worse. The whole deification of pg by some people on here is pretty weird if you ask me.

The whole deification of pg by some people on here is pretty weird if you ask me. I don't see any "deification" of pg, personally. I see people being very respectful and grateful for him, for providing this site (which he certainly does not owe us) and for being an active supporter of the startup scene and promoting entrepreneurship. He also has established credentials as a sharp technologist and all-around smart guy…

There's a minor bit of deification imo, though it's not as bad as it could be. It's not so much that disagreeing with him is suppressed, Soviet-style, as that quoting the Paul Graham Essays is sometimes seen as a legitimate form of argument (a form of argument-from-authority). Not pervasively to be sure, but it's something I notice now and then.

Re: Ask HN: Are the HN forums losing their civility?

#60
Yes. A large part of it is size. It's hard to discuss this without sounding like an elitist or a stuck up braggart, but that is not my intent. I'm also going to use Reddit for comparison, and it might sound like I'm slamming Reddit, but I am not. I've been there for over four years, and spend a lot of time there (way too much time). If it helps, while I am typing this I'm kind of watching and listening to "Finding Bigfoot" on Animal Planet. I think admitting that should prove I have no illusion that I'm superior...

I'm a reasonably bright person. On objective tests that are usually considered reasonably good indications of intelligence, I do reasonably well (99.6 percentile on the LSAT for instance). I managed to get a bachelor's degree in mathematics from a tough school (Caltech).

I find I prefer spending time, in real life or in virtual life, in the company of other bright people. In fact, I'm happiest when I'm generally outclassed by the people around me, but they are not so far ahead of me that I cannot understand what they are saying and make valuable contributions of my own. I do not like to be one of the smartest people in the room (real or virtual).

Reddit, at least the technical groups I had frequented when I signed up there over four years ago, was like that. But now those groups have 500k to 1 million or more readers. Just doing the math, you can't put together a group on an open forum like Reddit that is that big and still has enough smart people for me to be comfortably away from the top.

Such large groups tend to have many people who can't distinguish on their own between someone advocating a repellant position, and someone disagreeing with a flawed argument against a repellant position. It gets frustrating when someone says something, especially when they are advocating a position you actually agree with, that turns out to have some factual flaw, and then you spend 20 or 30 minutes working on a reply, and then you are massively down voted. On a lot of subreddits now I have stopped researching my comments--I just go from memory. If someone wants more information, or citations, they can use my comment for ideas to start their Google search.

HN when I signed up, a little under two years ago, was ideal. Nearly everyone seemed at least as smart as me, and I started recognizing a lot of people clearly my superior. It was like being back at Caltech. A down vote on HN actually meant something--if a comment of mine got a down vote it invariably meant I had done something really dumb and I'd learn from it.

And on HN you could post a devil's advocate argument without having to first explain that you are playing devil's advocate. You could take a contrary position just to get a good argument, and people would welcome it as long as your point was well written and logical.

As HN grows, it invariable is going to become more Reddit-like, but that behavior is more damaging here. Reddit has subreddits. You can skip the cesspools of stupidity like /r/politics and /r/atheism (my vote for the most disappointing subreddit) and at least get some good stuff in /r/programming (one of the few reddits to stay mostly reasonable despite growth) or /r/physics or /r/math.

HN doesn't separate things.

I'm using an add-on to inject custom CSS on the site, and I use that to highlight down voted comments in bright red so they stand out. I up vote any such comment if I can't see a good reason for the down vote. I've been finding lately that I have been up voting 90% of these comments. I up vote these even if I think the opinion in the comment is completely wrong, as long as it is expressed well and respectfully.

I don't know if this decline can be stopped, or if it is inevitable fate of every public discussion forum. One thing we can do is back off on things where they are adequately covered on Reddit AND the Reddit discussion is as good as the HN discussion. I've taken to flagging most of the political submissions unless something stands out to distinguish them. I've avoided this for a while, but in almost all of the discussion I've not seen any sign that the discussion here is better than that on Reddit.

Recall the advice from the HN guidelines:

-------------------------------------

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

-------------------------------------

Perhaps these could be tweaked a little. For the "Off-Topic", maybe "on TV news" could be expanded to "on TV news or on a large subreddit".

Again, sorry if any of this sounds elitist.

PS: they did not find Bigfoot.

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