No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse • Hacker News Board

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#31

Post by sakopov » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

I personally think that mental health in teens is deteriorating because western society throws teenagers into adulthood and forces adult decision-making choices upon them with nearly constant propaganda. Look at all the shit that's happening at school where kids are advised not tell their parents about certain, sometimes even life-altering, decisions they're struggling with. The social media aspect of it adds fuel to the fire by further isolating every teen and allowing them to wallow in their fears and sadness by putting them into bubbles of same-thinkers.

A few years back when political derangement was seemingly at its peak, my 14-year-old cousins were feverously arguing politics and social issues with adults at family functions. It was astounding to me, not because I was shocked that they had an opinion on any of it, but because they wasted their precious youth on stupid adult issues when they have their entire adulthood ahead of them to worry about it. This is an incredible weight to bare for adults, let alone children.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#32

Post by ChadNauseam » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #22

rayiner wrote: post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

What has changed since the 1970s is a greater proportion of productivity improvement has gone to capital vs labour. This means working people have to work much harder for comparatively less. Ascribing the resulting unhappiness to departing from some sort of communal idyll where young people 'knew their place' is rather regressive I'd suggest.

> What has changed since the 1970s is a greater proportion of productivity improvement has gone to capital vs labour.

The evidence just doesn't support this. There are analyses that purport to, but they look at wages rather than total compensation (including benefits)

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#33

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

woolion wrote: post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

It could be an indicator that people are less able to cope, and there is some really good causal evidence that social media causes anxiety in young girls.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#34

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #11

green_man_lives wrote: post #6

Article spends entire time "debunking" a political pundit who posts "hot takes" on Twitter, doesn't interview a single teen. Maybe, just maybe, the answer is multi-faceted. Maybe we should take the things kids say at face value if we want to pretend that we are being intellectually honest. Sure, humans are notoriously bad at describing their own qualia and reasons for why they feel the things they do, but listening s…

As a neoliberal/capitalist, I would suggest that capitalism is an incomplete theory and that we are still flushing things out. The huge rise in material standard of living from the 1850s to 1970s in the US made a dramatic improvement in people’s real quality of life. But since the 70s the improvements are very marginal. I speculate that’s because most of the consumer improvements are in the domain of status consumpti…

I don't think it has much to do with material abundance or status consumption as much as it is simply inequality. The productivity vs. real wage gap[1] that began in the early 1970s is well documented. Productivity gains since then have been largely captured by shareholders rather than workers. Quality of life is relative. While a poor person today may personally have more material abundance than a King in the 1300s or a middle class clerk in the early 1800s, their quality of life is still worse because it is measured relative to everyone else today.

1: https://www.epi.org/publication/understanding-the-historic-d...

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#35

Post by green_man_lives » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

woolion wrote: post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

If I was being cynical I'd say that this is just an article designed to get clicks by confirming people's biases.

To anyone who disagrees with me, ask yourself. What is the most important thing in your life? I can with certainty say that it doesn't have a "price" associated with it.

If you can comprehend that then you can accept the premise that life can get worse as material conditions improve, especially when the marginal utility of those increasing material conditions is already low. Are touchscreens really a 10x improvement in quality of life when penicillin has been invented?

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#36

Post by RC_ITR » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

nhchris wrote: post #10

rayiner wrote: post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

> There were no federal student loans. [..] Almost nobody went to college. How much did college cost? How necessary was a college degree for success?

Both the UC and CUNY system were famously tuition free until things like this started happening:

1960: The Master Plan for Higher Education in California maintains that tuition at University of California and state colleges should be free, but that fees are necessary to help cover non-instructional costs. “The two governing boards reaffirm the long established principle that state colleges and the University of California shall be free to all residents of the state.”

1966: Ronald Reagan assumed office of Governor of California and changed the course of the state’s higher education system. In his eight years, he cut state funding for college and universities and laid the foundation for a tuition-based system.

According to a New York Times article from 1982, during his eight years as governor, “Reagan fought hard in the legislature to impose tuition at four-year colleges. He lost the battle to lobbyists for the university, … However, the Legislature agreed to increase student registration fees.”

[0]https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/what-happened-to-ca...

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#37

Post by hot_gril » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

gretch wrote: post #13

LatteLazy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or post the 2008 crash where everything governments did for young people was slashed...

+1 to this How many teens had to watch their parent come home and announce that they got laid off from their job and that this year there wasn't going to be a yearly family trip?

There were so many recessions before 2008.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#38

Post by kube-system » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

woolion wrote: post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

Mental health is just one aspect of life, but issues in just this one aspect can cause death.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#39

Post by vaillant » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

Surprised nobody is mentioning climate change. Young people are supposed to be contributing and centering their lives around a kind of societal structure which is increasingly seen as doomed. The constant acceleration of capital is bumping up against the material finitude of an increasingly depleted Earth.

Conservatives have a vision of the doomed future, built around walls and hoarding resources against impending scarcity. But liberals don't really have a good answer outside of "bring the super-rich to heel and use their resources to invest in mitigations," a view which is anathema to politicians who depend on the super-rich to continue holding power.

People are depressed because there doesn't seem to be a future.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#40

Post by vondur » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #23

rayiner wrote: post #5

> [Lorenz] went on to suggest that the young people of the 1950s enjoyed objectively superior material prospects than young people do today This is why I think culture is more important than policy. Lorenz’s point is obviously non-sensical. She mentions the “safety net.” But Medicaid didn’t exist in the 1950s. There were no federal student loans. There were no food stamps. Almost nobody went to college. Etc. But it’s…

Some things are better, sure. But an awful lot of things are worse. I do think that on the whole, things have gotten worse. Not for me personally so much as for my children and their peers. > There were no federal student loans. True -- but by the same token, it was possible to "work your way through college". This is largely impossible now.

> True -- but by the same token, it was possible to "work your way through college". This is largely impossible now.

It can be done, if you are willing to do Community College and then head to a state university to finish up. We asked our friend's daughter, who was choosing which college to attend about going to a local state university. She replied, "what do I tell my friends?" as in it was beneath her. Which was funny as both her parents went to state universities.