Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

x.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 318 posts

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#231

Post by [deleted] »

haileys wrote: post #176
blibble wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

redhat seem to have tried their best to use systemd to turn Linux into Windows NT - over-complicated service manager - binary logs that are difficult to find - incomprehensible task scheduler - hidden caching dns resolution service - disk manager - network manager - login management - crappy ntp client all it needs is svchost.exe something that was 100% reliable is now about 98% reliable, and when it inevitably break…

Describing SysV init as 100% reliable is a very rose-tinted view of history, I think.

[deleted]

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#232

Post by blueflow »

haileys wrote: post #176
blibble wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

redhat seem to have tried their best to use systemd to turn Linux into Windows NT - over-complicated service manager - binary logs that are difficult to find - incomprehensible task scheduler - hidden caching dns resolution service - disk manager - network manager - login management - crappy ntp client all it needs is svchost.exe something that was 100% reliable is now about 98% reliable, and when it inevitably break…

Describing SysV init as 100% reliable is a very rose-tinted view of history, I think.

At least you can throw strace or the -x flag onto it and look at it.

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#233

Post by __d »

vetinari wrote: post #92
ddtaylor wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of graphics cards are Nvidia which don't play nicely at all with Wayland.

> The majority of graphics cards are Nvidia The majority of graphics cards are Intel.

Very few graphics cards are Intel.

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#234

Post by adra »

terrorOf wrote: post #149
wmf wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since 99% of users are on Linux anyway, that can't be the largest issue.

What a typical Linux user mindset! That IS one of the largest issues for non-Linux users. Linux is by large margin a niche OS in desktop market share. So it is no issue if all programs are developed only for Windows and/or Macintosh. Right?

And windows / mac are now minor players compared to android / IOS, and everything is a minor players vs web pages.

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#235

Post by theamk »

throw0101c wrote: post #229
nine_k wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately binary logging can be switched off and redirected to syslog on hosts where have control but can't replace the init system. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd/Journal#Journald_in...

> Fortunately binary logging can be switched off This is not switching them off. It is having the binary logs mirrored to text logs: > […] by letting systemd forward all messages via the socket /run/systemd/journal/syslog. So now you have two copies of the same information.

You use it with Storage=none, which turns off binary logging format

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#236

Post by chlorion »

kelnos wrote: post #205
Jnr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is usable. It is simply not fully used. Wayland is just a protocol and there are multiple implementations in different compositors. Instead of focusing on a single great implementation, there are multiple average and weak implementations. It puts quite a bit of pressure on desktop environment developers and it seems like they don't really care about many of the defined protocols. https://wayland.app/protocols…

> It puts quite a bit of pressure on desktop environment developers and it seems like they don't really care about many of the defined protocols. The problem is that the existing protocols are missing key functionality that desktop environment developers need (source: I am one). Want to list all the toplevel windows that are on a particular workspace so you can write a pager or taskbar widget? Nope, can't do it. The…

>Want to list all the toplevel windows that are on a particular workspace so you can write a pager or taskbar widget?

I can do this with a trivial "jq" script in Sway with this command:

    swaymsg -t get_tree
Not sure why it wouldn't be possible for other compositors to offer an interface for this like Sway does.

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#237

Post by recuter »

_vbnz wrote: post #136
dark-star wrote: post #96

The discussion about "wayland vs X11" is eerily reminiscent of the discussion of "systemd vs. sysv-init"... Some people apparently really do hate it when things change that they seemingly have no control over Edit: I fully expect to be downvoted into oblivion for this post :-D

Wayland has a massive loss in functionality (in the name of "security" and off-loading implementation details to compositors/window managers) compared to X11 though. Stuff like xdotool, screen sharing, clipboard sharing, etc. is much harder.

Wait just a second mister. Is it a loss of functionality or is it just "much harder"?

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#238

Post by mepian »

kelnos wrote: post #186
messe wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland is 15yo, barely usable It's the default on several distros. I regularly play AAA games on my gentoo gaming PC, using proprietary NVIDIA drivers, on KDE Plasma, with little or no performance differences compared to X11. Even the Steam Deck, arguably the most popular linux PC, runs its default UI on Wayland.

A little weird to classify the Steam Deck as a "personal computer". It's a special-purpose handheld gaming device that just happens to run Linux & Wayland under the hood. While I wouldn't call Android phones "personal computers" either, they're much closer to being the "most popular Linux PC" than a Steam Deck is.

The Steam Deck is not locked down, unlike e.g. the Nintendo Switch.

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#239

Post by wkat4242 »

bitwize wrote: post #216
wkat4242 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but GTK and the gnome world is highly politicized by RedHat. KDE and Qt are much further away from cutting X11 off. I see the case for Wayland but similar to X11 it is already showing its age in poorly conceived design decisions. Desktop sharing for example should be a first class citizen in 2023.

Xorg is maintained... by Red Hat. As steponlego pointed out, they're already binning up chunks of the code base, but that's just preparing for when they shut the lights off entirely. As soon as Red Hat says "Shop's closed, boys, we won't be updating this code anymore" KDE and Qt will happily cut out their X support. Especially since Qt has for years been targeting mobile phones, car displays, and embedded application…

Yeah I know RedHat 'maintains' X11, this is part of the politicizing they do. Embrace, extinguish, they just forgot the extend part :)

RedHat and their business focus is a lot of what is wrong with Linux for users today. We don't make money for RedHat so their priorities aren't with us.

I'm hoping someone will still take it over for when happens. RedHat doesn't own X11. Wayland has its uses but there's a lot of niche and legacy usecases what will still need X11.

Re: X12: Requirements for a successor to the X11 protocol (2013)

#240

Post by wkat4242 »

aslilac wrote: post #202
wkat4242 wrote: post #193

Great that development of X is apparently being restarted. Wayland is ok but it has many oversights like network transparency.

> Last edited Mon 18 Sep 2017 07:52:26 AM UTC > This is not to say that there's an X12 project. There isn't.

Yeah I missed the 2013 part too. Still an X12 would be a great idea. I'd contribute to it.
Post reply on HN