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Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

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Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#111

Post by myshpa »

cma wrote: post #78
myshpa wrote: post #21

Change my mind: 90%+ of plastic is not necessary. Not necessary: - plastic bottles (good only for coca-cola's profits etc., 90% of bottled drinks contain microplastics, use glass) - food wrappers (use paper & natural wax, not pfoas) - plastic shopping bags (use textile bags like our grandma's did) - eshop packages (ever received goods in plastic bags wrapped in insane amounts of additional plastic?) - tea bags made w…

> tea bags made with plastic (yes, they're there, not biodegradable, lots of microplastics in your tea) I would imagine every time you scrape off the lint from your dryer's lint trap you inhale orders of magnitude more microplastics than these food/drink examples and and swallow more too from nasal drip. Is this intuition off?

Don't know about the comparison with dryers, but teabags leak billions of particles

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49845940

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#112

Post by coeneedell »

hammock wrote: post #47
rockostrich wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the very kitchen focused comment but the kitchen is where I used the most plastic. Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") because it's lightweight, durable, and can be transparent. Sure, glass could work but it's a lot more fragile, especially if you were to try to constantly stack/unstack them in a commercial kitchen. To a lesser extent the same argument could be made for po…

>Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") Heavily impregnated with BPA. I would avoid putting anything warmer than room temp in there (yes I know they're in widespread use in restaurants) >I can't imagine plastic wrap being replaced without some special lid (proofing a bread loaf that you want to proof out of the top of the container). Cheese cloth tied around the lid with plenty of slac…

Unfortunately the cheese cloth solution doesn’t work if you’re cold-fermenting an enriched/fatty dough in the fridge, as it can pick up “fridge flavor” without a lid or plastic wrap.

For very long ferments (cold proofing sourdough for example) it’s also liable to dry out.

All other situations it works fine for in my experience.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#113

Post by ldhough »

myshpa wrote: post #21

Change my mind: 90%+ of plastic is not necessary. Not necessary: - plastic bottles (good only for coca-cola's profits etc., 90% of bottled drinks contain microplastics, use glass) - food wrappers (use paper & natural wax, not pfoas) - plastic shopping bags (use textile bags like our grandma's did) - eshop packages (ever received goods in plastic bags wrapped in insane amounts of additional plastic?) - tea bags made w…

> use glass

I really enjoy soft drinks (terrible ik) and will never buy plastic bottles or cans instead of glass bottles. I really don't think I'm crazy or alone in thinking glass-bottled tastes better. My local convenience store sells Jarritos but not the glass-bottled Mexican coke and as a direct consequence I only buy the Jarritos, otherwise I'd mix it up a bit.

I assume glass is also better environmentally but I do wonder how much of the benefit is offset by taking more energy to produce (I assume) and to ship.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#114

Post by jessekv »

Retric wrote: post #90
jessekv wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In South East Asia, you can buy a lot of different prepared foods in banana, lotus, or bamboo leaf wrappings. Additionally, corn husks are used for wrapping tamales in Mexico. I wish I knew what the equivalent would have been in Europe. I would love to see traditional packaging getting popular in supermarkets around the world.

Lack of an air barrier is a huge limitation on shelf life. It’s not an issue for prepared foods you are about to eat but it is most things you’re buying at a grocery store.

It's not an issue for the fruits, vegetables, eggs, grains, "cured" meats, or many cheeses that I buy at the grocery store.

Relying on natural barriers to keep things from breaking down does limit shelf life, but its not a foreign concept to shoppers or grocery stores.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#115

Post by ldhough »

lumb63 wrote: post #84
myshpa wrote: post #21

Change my mind: 90%+ of plastic is not necessary. Not necessary: - plastic bottles (good only for coca-cola's profits etc., 90% of bottled drinks contain microplastics, use glass) - food wrappers (use paper & natural wax, not pfoas) - plastic shopping bags (use textile bags like our grandma's did) - eshop packages (ever received goods in plastic bags wrapped in insane amounts of additional plastic?) - tea bags made w…

A huge barrier to eliminating plastic use is making people aware of their plastic use. Prior to thinking about it and investigating, I was unaware of how many plastics I was using. How many people think their clothing is plastic? They probably think it’s “some textile” and that’s all the thought they ever give it. How many people consider the plastic in their dishwasher or laundry pods, or in packaging? They’re all u…

> probably think it’s “some textile” and that’s all the thought they ever give it.

Even when aware it can be a challenge to find replacements. I bought https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-pile-lined-trucker-ja... a year ago and while I put reasonable effort into finding an alternative that didn't use "pile" or "sherpa wool" (fake wool), it was hard to find any at all. The very few results I did find were a totally different style. Ordinary shirts seem to be a fair bit easier but I would love suggestions for high quality jackets made of natural materials.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#116

Post by Retric »

jessekv wrote: post #114
Retric wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of an air barrier is a huge limitation on shelf life. It’s not an issue for prepared foods you are about to eat but it is most things you’re buying at a grocery store.

It's not an issue for the fruits, vegetables, eggs, grains, "cured" meats, or many cheeses that I buy at the grocery store. Relying on natural barriers to keep things from breaking down does limit shelf life, but its not a foreign concept to shoppers or grocery stores.

I’ve gotten all of those without them without plastic packaging. Presumably for cost cutting not just environmental concern.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#117

Post by gadflyinyoureye »

coeneedell wrote: post #112
hammock wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Polycarbonate is a very useful plastic for food containers ("cambros") Heavily impregnated with BPA. I would avoid putting anything warmer than room temp in there (yes I know they're in widespread use in restaurants) >I can't imagine plastic wrap being replaced without some special lid (proofing a bread loaf that you want to proof out of the top of the container). Cheese cloth tied around the lid with plenty of slac…

Unfortunately the cheese cloth solution doesn’t work if you’re cold-fermenting an enriched/fatty dough in the fridge, as it can pick up “fridge flavor” without a lid or plastic wrap. For very long ferments (cold proofing sourdough for example) it’s also liable to dry out. All other situations it works fine for in my experience.

How about this? https://www.beeswrap.com/ My wife uses as an alternative to clingwrap.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#118

Post by corbulo »

mort96 wrote: post #106
corbulo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're usually more about strongly opposing the appearance of releasing harmful chemicals. See Nuclear Energy NIMBYism, lithium/ cobalt mining, emissions and supply chain required to make solar panels, and wind turbine blade disposal. To call any of it "clean" energy is quite a stretch.

You're not far away from a very important point. There is no such thing as truly "clean" energy, and calling it "clean energy" does arguably take the focus away from the need to reduce energy consumption. Maybe it should've been called "less dirty" energy, like how we call rubber bullets and tasers "less lethal" rather than "non-lethal". And I share your concern that a sustainable solution to our energy needs can't c…

>Where your argument falls down, however, is that you're making it sound like a choice between the toxic chemical pollution from "clean" energy and the greenhouse gas pollution from coal, gas and oil. It's not. Burning fossil fuels releases a huge amount of toxic chemicals as well. People are getting lung cancer and asthma from living in polluted cities. And the death toll from coal power is astronomical.

I don't look at them as separate. All these (non-nuclear) 'alternative' or 'green' or 'clean' energies do is adjust the proportions of fossil fuels at various points in the logistics chain to procure them. They don't really reduce its usage; at best they just concentrate it closer to the areas of direct procurement.

For example with electric cars, they simply move the consumption of 'dirty' energy to increase at coal plants and procuring the materials for manufacturing.

Something very rarely considered in the political dialogues surrounding energy is the logistics and security issues. Solar panels are essentially totally dependent on China for example. That issue should be solved before it is taken seriously as an alternative. https://archive.is/6Mg5V

The only source of energy that reduces pollution the most dramatically with the most controllable costs to the environment is nuclear.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#119

Post by eppp »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #31
myshpa wrote: post #21

Change my mind: 90%+ of plastic is not necessary. Not necessary: - plastic bottles (good only for coca-cola's profits etc., 90% of bottled drinks contain microplastics, use glass) - food wrappers (use paper & natural wax, not pfoas) - plastic shopping bags (use textile bags like our grandma's did) - eshop packages (ever received goods in plastic bags wrapped in insane amounts of additional plastic?) - tea bags made w…

One use that comes to my mind are trash bags. I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but what did people use for trash bags before plastic was invented? I've tried Googling this a few times with unsatisfying results. Trash bags by definition need to be disposable.

I was born in the 80s and plenty of people were still just throwing it 'over the hill' or 'in a hole'. There are still remnants of it lying around if you know where to look. About 10 years ago when China was buying lots of scrap iron and steel, the scavengers dragged away all of the metal that was in these places which at least made them look better. You can still spot some old tires now and then.

Re: Plastic-based fuels may present an “unreasonable risk” to human health

#120

Post by saltcured »

VLM wrote: post #98
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One use that comes to my mind are trash bags. I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but what did people use for trash bags before plastic was invented? I've tried Googling this a few times with unsatisfying results. Trash bags by definition need to be disposable.

I'm an old enough gen-Xer to remember using paper grocery bags as a kid. There is a "standard" rectangular kitchen trash can size that used to fit grocery paper bags perfectly. Toss the bag in the galvanized steel trash can and the can is dumped out once a week. Its a little more labor intensive, you can't dump liquids in a paper bag at least without paper towels, etc.

Exactly. But, you left out lifting your kid into the galvanized can to stomp down those paper bags and make space towards the end of the week...
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