This is quite raw and I'm actually somewhat afraid to share this. But I think sleep apnea is criminally under-discussed and underdiagnosed. It can f your life up sideways and can take years to diagnose. So sharing my story and hope I can advocate for it. If you have sleep apnea, no amount of sleep gadgets, good habits, exercise, will help you. You must fix the root cause
> You must fix the root cause The main cause of sleep apnea is obesity, which ruins your health by just about every other metric you could measure as well. It’s good advice to address sleep apnea, but you’d have to dig a little deeper to get to the root cause (in most cases).
Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
261–270 of 370 posts
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#262I found this hard to read. I have struggled with poor sleep for years (like, 10 years probably). It's not _that bad_, but, memory isn't great and definitely don't feel rested in the mornings. But I'm still reasonably functional, can hold down a job etc. A while back I got tested for sleep apnea, had a 6 or a 7 on the scale (mild). I tried the CPAP machine for 6 weeks (inside the time I could return it). My number wen…
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#263I have a horrible snoring issue and I have some problems with burnout, "brain fog", and inability to stay focused. I have a snorelab score in the 50s and my wife kicked me out of our bedroom since she can't sleep. I did a take-home sleep study with Kaiser once but they said I just have mild disordered sleeping but no apnea. I'm not super fat or anything either (BMI = 23.9). It seems like I very likely have something…
The bad news is, long term snoring will damage your airway, which could even cause sleep apnea in the long run.
You can (usually) treat snoring with CPAP, which is reasonably easy to do and low pressure settings will probably do the trick (compared to full blown apnea where more pressure might be required). Depending on what causes the snoring (flappy uvula, nasal congestion, whatever), different treatment options might be available.
What you probably want is a "sleep endoscopy". This is where they sedate you and look inside your airway as you take a nap. This can help doctors pinpoint the root cause of the snoring, which might set you up for a fix ...
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#264I'm trying to understand how exactly do they know sometimes if there is central sleep apnea or obstructive sleep apnea happening with the tests. Is a CPAP or other machine helpful for central sleep apnea?
The cause of central apneas isn't always clear, but at high CPAP pressures it can be caused by CPAP, because it can end up blowing off CO2, and breathing is done primarily in response to an increase in CO2.
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apnea is nearly universal among older weightlifters. It is not well understood, but it seems that relatively small changes to the physiology of the neck end up interfering with breathing. Many healthy and strong people don't have any idea what is making them feel bad until many other alternative explanations are eliminated.
I wonder if there's a more simple remedy like a tilted bedframe or a hammock or something.
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its been shown that sleep apnea related brain damage reverses completely within a year of treatment. If your issue is a narrow airway due to a recessed jaw an MMA can be curative. Insurance covers MMA if AHI > 15. Do you have people around you that can help cover an MMA if you need to self fund? Or people you can borrow money from? Dr Alfaro in Barecelona will do it much cheaper than the US. I understand the dread. I…
My dude, Alfaro charges prices that are vastly out of reach of anyone not made of money, and I'm at a point where making Dr appointments in the first place, nevermind coordinating travel, pushes me to my limits. I can probably get it done under public healthcare where I live, but I don't know if I can afford orthodontics, even if it's "only" a few thousand bucks over here.
Edit: More ideas: sleep on your side, when sleep on your back stack multiple pillows to lift your head higher up (seems to help IME).
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
> (Antihistamines being linked to dementia and steroids being linked to membrane damage amongst other things) Oh, cool. I guess I should stop I'm severely allergic to dust mites as well. I get weekly allergy shots and while they've had a great effect on itchy eyes, runny nose, extreme stuffiness, and other seasonal allergy symptoms... my nose is still congested almost all the time. I got a dust mite-proof cover for m…
Sorry to hear the turbinate reduction didn't work for you, that was actually what I was considering next. I seem to remember that the dementia thing was to do with long term use of first generation antihistamines (the drowsy kind). I can't quite remember if second generation antihistamines were a problem or not so might be worth check out with a doctor if you're worried. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-ant…
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#268This is quite raw and I'm actually somewhat afraid to share this. But I think sleep apnea is criminally under-discussed and underdiagnosed. It can f your life up sideways and can take years to diagnose. So sharing my story and hope I can advocate for it. If you have sleep apnea, no amount of sleep gadgets, good habits, exercise, will help you. You must fix the root cause
- sleeping on my side to avoid positional sleep apnea
- mouth taping works
- allergies can have a large effect on sleep
- having problems with CPAP (initially, see below)
- Having a more UARS-ish case, since I always exercised, and after losing weight I have medically normal / below American-average BMI, etc.
- We're in a similar demographic -- programmer in SF at the time, Chinese American, I'm guessing ~10 years older than you. (One thing I found in my research was a YouTube video by a doctor from Hong Kong saying that Asians have a facial/bone structure that makes them more prone to sleep apnea. I think that is probably true, although there are many other factors too.)
- Realizing this has affected me for 10-20 years (memories going back to grade school). (I also wonder if sleep apnea is adaptive when you're young, and harmful when you're old. I read a book that conjectured this. It's so damn common that it has to be adaptive in some way. It's a ridiculous problem from a biological point of view -- your neck and throat are strangling you to death while you sleep :-/ )
- Having to piece together treatment from multiple health care providers, and doing research on my own.
Though it sounds like I did have better "luck", since I had a very smart and helpful dentist in SF, who was the one who told me I had sleep apnea after 2 incidents of cracked teeth. I initially didn't believe her !!!
She also told me about Christian Guilleminault (and she met him), and I got great referrals from her to a myofunctional therapist in Oakland, who gave me still more good referrals.
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Anyway, I spent years on it, and am in a pretty good place now. I agree with a lot of your conclusions at the end -- it's a very difficult problem to solve, and it's NOT really worth it for a single medical care provider to solve it for you!
It just takes too much effort and expertise.
It's still poorly understood, and I got a lot of conflicting advice, and had to "triangulate" on my own.
Every case is a snowflake. In my experience, every treatment/remedy works A LITTLE, but there is no magic cure. I still have to stay vigilant.
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Since everyone is a bit different, I'll offer up the things that helped me:
- I started with a MAD from my dentist, which definitely worked, but it wasn't consistent, and had side effects of inflaming my gums. Also it seemed to make sleep WORSE some nights.
- I also got a CPAP, which sat in the closet for THREE years. It felt like I was drowning in air, I couldn't keep up and fall asleep with it on.
- I started sleeping on an air mattress, not a bed. And now I've done this for 3-4 years !!! Honestly it makes me wonder about the comment in this thread talking about how a mattress ruined their sleep. I did get a new mattress around ~2012, and I think I started experiencing more sleep problems then, but I didn't realize I had sleep apnea until ~2018 or so.
- I had a "fuzzy and dry eye" problem (that also feels a little like "brain fog", although it wasn't as extreme), that went away after I addressed sleep apnea. I went to doctors about this before I knew anything about sleep apnea. I never read it in any book, and no doctor ever told me, but now I know it was caused by sleep apnea.
- I got the referral to the myofunctional therapist in Oakland. It sounds weird, as you exercise your tongue and mouth muscles. Miraculously, within one appointment, I was able to breathe through my nose consistently, during the day, at night, and while exercising.
I had been a mouth breather for my entire life. I knew that, but I didn't know it was a problem. (It was also quite visible that you can change the muscle tone of your tongue within 8 appointments or so. You can see the difference.)
- I was able to use the CPAP with the nose mask after that, and that's what I still use.
- I also went to a very helpful posture therapist and worked on my breathing during the day, while walking and biking.
- I've kept off 15 pounds since 2017, which definitely helps, but isn't the root cause.
- I also started eating 2 meals a day of whole foods, instead of 3 plus many snacks. And pretty strictly avoiding processed carbs (white bread and even white rice) and processed fats (e.g. fast food).
In my experience, the whole foods make your jaws and teeth stronger and more resilient. (I read "Jaws" by Kahn, Breath by Nestor, and many other helpful books from practicing dentists.)
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So to anyone here who is still struggling, I will just offer that as an anecdote -- the myofunctional therapy, mouth taping, breathing through your nose, helped me use the CPAP.
I had a CPAP since 2018, and didn't start using it until 2021, because I couldn't stand it.
I would say if you're out of options, and can envision any way that you can possibly use a CPAP, make another effort. It might take some therapy, diligence, and time, but it will be worth it.
Thanks again for sharing, and I hope this comment thread helps more people! I definitely sympathize with that feeling of being "out of options", where you dread going to bed at night.
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's definitely not too late for you mate, no matter how it feels in the short term. You're putting it off because deep down your subconscious still knows that you are important and have innate value. When things are dark it's easy to forget it but the world needs you, people you know need you and love you. I suspect it's a trick of the mind that hides that from us temporarily. Anything you do will help and it will g…
I'm not a person who went from high functioning to struggling. I'm a person who went from no longer able to attend high school to ten years of being trapped at home by progressively debilitating fatigue. I've tried hundreds of things over the years, but it's like playing whack-a-mole or trying to slay the mythical hydra. For every improvement I manage, I fail two. No matter what I do, it isn't enough. I can barely ta…
Re: Poor sleep drove me insane, and my long path to recovery
#270We have 2 cats that I love but one of them makes sure that I do not get a good nights sleep. I could not find any solutions so far. On top of that my wife snores and I’ve had long periods of poor sleep as a result of this. I realised that this is an issue while traveling. Being able to properly sleep in hotels and feeling rested / clear. Trying to find solutions. Ear plugs don’t feel good and even though sleeping in…