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A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

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Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#81

Post by random314 »

kashyapc wrote: post #65
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Running is a Great exercise to damage your knees.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#82

Post by infamousclyde »

dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #70
kashyapc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.

This is kind of curious. Isn't that 2/3 energy slump usually associated with the marathon distance, as your body exhausts glycogen reserves? You shouldn't be bonking at 15k. Moreover, I would never recommend to stop eating carbohydrates as a distance runner. I think it's great you lost weight and hit a PB, but I would lean towards consistent training with key workouts and a balanced diet leading up to a race.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#83

Post by dhsysusbsjsi »

infamousclyde wrote: post #82
dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.

This is kind of curious. Isn't that 2/3 energy slump usually associated with the marathon distance, as your body exhausts glycogen reserves? You shouldn't be bonking at 15k. Moreover, I would never recommend to stop eating carbohydrates as a distance runner. I think it's great you lost weight and hit a PB, but I would lean towards consistent training with key workouts and a balanced diet leading up to a race.

I’m 92kg +/-, 187cm. Run 2x a week 6.5km like clockwork, plus extra fitness 2-3x a week. So heavy guy. I do about one 1/2 marathon a year and train up to 15km. Heart sits at 180-185 by the end. The 18km is definitely a hump where it’s not aerobic fitness but feels like need to push through a mental wall. I don’t think I have the physique for a full marathon without proper preparation but may try next year.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#84

Post by quietbritishjim »

dharmab wrote: post #68
abalashov wrote: post #62

As a [semi-serious] road cyclist and occasional racer, this reminds me of the duty of "domestiques" on cycling teams. It's probably more obvious to this crowd than to the general population, but I'll say: because most of a cyclist's energy is spent fighting air resistance, (road) cycling as a sport is almost entirely about drag management and drafting other cyclists. That's also what makes it a team sport. Riding rig…

I was once motorcycle touring in the Wyoming/Utah/Colorado area with a friend who was riding an old, carbureted Suzuki dual sport that struggled with power at altitude. We found we could significantly increase its top speed and fuel range by drafting it off the "bubble" created by my bike's panniers. Inside the bubble was like the eye of a storm.

When I commuted by bicycle in London in my 20s I would often draft behind double decker buses. Not terribly sensible, for various reasons including their exhaust, but very effective. And with a profile that big you don't need to be very close to get a good effect.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#85

Post by richeyryan »

random314 wrote: post #81
kashyapc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Running is a Great exercise to damage your knees.

This is technically true if you go out and start running a lot from zero if you are overweight or ignore your body and the warnings it gives in the run-up to injury. If you build up running gradually and treat it as a skill that you learn and improve on your technique and always listen to the feedback your body is giving you, then running is a great way to improve the health of the joints, muscles and bones in your legs and feet.

Most children happily run around all day and rarely develop any issues. Adults have an unfortunate habit of becoming quite sedentary, losing any conditioning they had and then going out and running distances their body isn't prepared for. Then people will blame their shoes or even the activity itself when the most significant factor is doing too much too soon.

This interview with Daniel Lieberman[1], an evolutionary biologist out of Harvard, is a good read about the misconceptions associated with human activity and what studies of our historical behaviour can tell us about what is and isn't important in staying active.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/01/daniel-lieber...

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#86

Post by RHSman2 »

random314 wrote: post #81
kashyapc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Running is a Great exercise to damage your knees.

One out of every runner gets injured :)

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#87

Post by kashyapc »

dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #70
kashyapc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.

Uh, "stop eating carbs 2 months before" sounds like bad advice that needs a lot of heavy caveats. As you know, carbs are precisely we need when going the distance. I know long-time runners who even eat pasta for breakfast before a half-marathon!

I'm ~64KG and 180cm tall. And I feel light when running; I have almost zero excess fat. If I reduce more weight, it would be unhealthy. As it is, I could be called (healthy) "skinny". This is one thing that's unmissable with marathon and longer runners (including the "elites"): many of them look unhealthily thin. I want to avoid going that route.

    • • •
I'm thinking of trying gels. In my last half-m, I broke the "golden rule" of not trying anything new on race day, and paid a small price. Here's my embarrassing story, if you want to have a laugh:

I only trained once with an "isotonic gel" during a training run, and that time I took the gel right before the run. The gel is supposed to provide a small dose of carbohydrates as fuel. Now, during the (half-m) race, I put the gel in my back pocket (which I didn't try out in training). At around 15KM mark, when I reached for it, I felt the goddamned gel slowly leaking in my back pocket! I managed to fish it out and down the gel, but jeez, my hands were incredibly sticky for the rest of the 5KM. (Plus: the backpocket side of my running shorts was so sticky from the fricking gel-leak that whenever I sat down after the run, I had to forcefully detach my shorts from my skin!)

Now, I'm not even sure if the damn gel helped me. I suspect it even slowed me down a bit! (I'm judging this based on the pace of my last 5KM.) Luckily it wasn't a disaster, but an annoying distraction for about 5 KM. To be fair on the gel, my body was just not sufficiently used to it. I need to experiment more on how my body reacts to it. Some runners don't ... gel well with gels.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#88

Post by RHSman2 »

fsckboy wrote: post #56
metadat wrote: post #7

It does seem kind of cheap to rely on a pacer, I can see how purists lament it as "not real racing". It eliminates an entire dimension from the competition: managing oneself and being aware / humble enough to not push unsustainably hard at the start only to run out of juice later on. Using a pacer essentially reduces the race to an artless treadmill grind. As an observer, the paced portion of the race is stupidly bor…

> As an observer, the paced portion of the race is stupidly boring. part of it comes with the territory, I mean a marathon is pretty boring all the way through, and only now and then do we get an exciting finish. but on this topic, i'm with you all in favor of questioning the sportsmanship and "is it really racing?" aspect, but the paced portion of the race is generally being run at a faster pace than it would be if…

Boring is a subjective experience.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#89

Post by kashyapc »

infamousclyde wrote: post #82
dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.

This is kind of curious. Isn't that 2/3 energy slump usually associated with the marathon distance, as your body exhausts glycogen reserves? You shouldn't be bonking at 15k. Moreover, I would never recommend to stop eating carbohydrates as a distance runner. I think it's great you lost weight and hit a PB, but I would lean towards consistent training with key workouts and a balanced diet leading up to a race.

Yes! On "diet" — as the saying goes, "you can't outrun a bad diet."

I want do some strength training besides the usual bicycling and running 3-4x a week. But I keep dragging my feet with it.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#90

Post by meghan_rain »

js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

But how do the pacers keep pace?
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