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France's baby bust

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Re: France's baby bust

#181
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it should have kept exploding.

Why? There are diminishing returns on industrialising.

Not just that, but in cold economic terms there are diminishing on having large families in industrialized societies. A large broad is an asset in agrarian societies but largely a liability in an industrialized one.

Re: France's baby bust

#182

> From the dawn of humanity to the eighteenth century, human life was dominated by starvation, poverty, wars, and pandemics. Actually no, human life only started to be dominated by this after the shift from hunter gatherer to agrarian societies.

Marshall Sahlins studied hunter gatherer bands, and many work less than forty hours a week. Programmers I know can't figure out how to get down to a forty hour a week workweek to survive, but these hunter gather bands in sub-Saharan Africa and the Amazon seem to have figured it out.

Re: France's baby bust

#183

The book, "shall the religious inherit the world" is relevant. I'd be interested what happens when general birthrate declines and a religious group, that massively encourages tons of children, take larger voting percentages.

Even in highly religious Islamic countries, education - especially among women - seems to trump religious indoctrination when it comes to producing children.

It would be interesting to understand how much of that effect is actually education and how much of it is the explicit need to delay reproduction for _any_ socially structured reason.

Re: France's baby bust

#184
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Italia is a largely more catholic country than France [0], yet France has a higher fertility rate France fertility rate are boosted by its Muslim population https://mythdetector.ge/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/inline-im... .

Muslims account for about 6% of the general population in France, so I doubt that explains the difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_France

I'm not saying it's the one and only factor (not even sure how much it actually count, numerically), I'm just saying that automatically equating “births in religious families in France” to “traditional catholic families” is too much of a shortcut.

Re: France's baby bust

#185
post #181
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? There are diminishing returns on industrialising.

Not just that, but in cold economic terms there are diminishing on having large families in industrialized societies. A large broad is an asset in agrarian societies but largely a liability in an industrialized one.

A large family is an asset in industrialized societies too, but in the long run. For example, having lots of siblings can help you later on for networking or being able to go someone to depend on, assuming a decent number of them obtain useful positions in society.

But in the short term, it is a lot of sacrifice, especially for the woman who has to give birth and raise all those babies. And of course, it is a lot of work to instill values such that the family stays close, and luck such as being located in a location that is experiencing an economic boom.

Re: France's baby bust

#186
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it should have kept exploding.

Why? There are diminishing returns on industrialising.

The demographic transition in France began earlier than in other industrial economies. I'm not even sure industrialization has much to do with it.

The fertility rate in Britain was still higher in the 1880s than it was in France back in 1800. Economically Britain was 20-50 years ahead of France but demographically France was almost a hundred years ahead.

e.g. see https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033137/fertility-rate-f... and https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033074/fertility-rate-u...

Re: France's baby bust

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Industrial Revolution was why they were able to colonise the world. Being much, much more productive means you can afford a lot more bullets/cannon/artillery/small arms and you need less of your population as a share growing food. Europeans were better at war than anyone else because Europe was always at war somewhere. It was geographically fragmented enough that any one power becoming hegemonic never happened ag…

This is the traditional view, but opinions have shifted recently. European colonization was driven mostly by the population boom accompanying the industrial revolution. The military advantage was real in the late 18th and 19th centuries, but that was brief compared to the timeline of the traditional explanation of Europe always being at war. For example Ming China was the first gunpowder empire and was militarily com…

Well European powers were already well ahead in their 'quest' of subjugating the entire world in the 1500s and 1600s. Obviously they couldn't directly challenge China and some other Asian states at the time yet but the trend was pretty clear.

However Europe still lagged both economically and population wise behind Asia at the time and industrialization hadn't really started.

Re: France's baby bust

#189
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That line of thinking only goes so far, industry also allows one to simply buy resources from foreign locations without the bother of conquest and administration. It’s really a combination of many factors including Europe’s relatively high population that made it both viable and desirable.

And tbh the European demographics expansion between 1500-1800, before industrialization properly spread out from Britain [0], was the Columbian Exchange. Potatoes unlocked lots of land in the northern part. And the other unsung botany, too. And the ability to send surplus men (and women) to an empty (because of disease) continent instead of having them warring against each other like pre-Columbian Europe and East Asi…

> was conquered was because of industries

And control of the global trade networks. The same reason why the seemingly insignificant Netherlands (population and area wise) were able to maintain its position as a global superpower throughout most of the 17th century before being replaced by Britain. Of course it's a bit baffling that that happened after England and Holland ceased being rivals because a Dutch army invaded Britain, overthrew it's government and put their Stadholder on the English Throne..

Re: France's baby bust

#190
post #2

> In 1700, almost 1 in 25 inhabitants on Earth, and one in five in Europe, was French. Today, less than a percent of humanity is French. Why did France’s population decline in relative terms so dramatically, and did it really mark the decline of France? It seems far-fetched to use global population as a relative indicator of France's "decline", where the global population exploded after the industrial revolution.

So this is why Europeans were able to colonize the entire world roughly in the 1700s.

I wouldn't say so. Some of the colonizers were quite small: the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Belgians, &c.

But it's important to state that it wasn't Europeans, but western Europeans who colonized. Here in Romania we never colonized anyone but were colonized by western Europeans and Asians: Austrians, Russians, Turks, &c.

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