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Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

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Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#161
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you are advocating for it a system where professors can do anything they want and them simply blackball the student who makes a legitimate complaint and have all their professor friends do the same. No. I hear that you had bad experiences. That said, the right to challenge one's accuser dates back hundreds of years. It has survived as a foundational principle across millions of legal cases across all domains a…

You hit the nail on the head but you did not actually say it. The current system is NOT part of the legal system. We are not arguing about the legal system. We are arguing about the administrative system these administrators/professors put in the place. The exact ones ruining students lives on a whim. If you want to say the professors/admins get the right to challenge ones accuser then they can no longer be involved…

> Curious how you feel about anonymous whistleblowers?

If the legislation survives for 50 years (it's not quite halfway there today), I'll accept it has passed the test of time. Until then, I'll likely continue to view it as a mistake but likely not for the reasons you expect.

Quoting from the Wikipedia page[0]:

> Between 1994 and 2010, the court had ruled for whistleblowers in only three of 203 cases decided on their merits, GAP's analysis found.

3 cases out of 204 means the court upheld 1.5% of Whistleblower claims. I find it extremely unlikely only 1.5% of claims had merit, or that only 1.5% would have succeeded in more conventional proceedings.

Anyone who throws away centuries of legal precedent in order to introduce a new legal concept to "improve things" and then produces a result that almost certainly provides worse outcomes for those it is supposed to protect was not, in my opinion, the once in a millenium legal mind that individual believed themself to be.

Given the high bar it needed to achieve to justify overturning centuries of precedent and the low bar it actually achieved, I think the Whistleblower legislation, as implemented, is an empirical failure.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#162
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail on the head but you did not actually say it. The current system is NOT part of the legal system. We are not arguing about the legal system. We are arguing about the administrative system these administrators/professors put in the place. The exact ones ruining students lives on a whim. If you want to say the professors/admins get the right to challenge ones accuser then they can no longer be involved…

> Curious how you feel about anonymous whistleblowers? If the legislation survives for 50 years (it's not quite halfway there today), I'll accept it has passed the test of time. Until then, I'll likely continue to view it as a mistake but likely not for the reasons you expect. Quoting from the Wikipedia page[0]: > Between 1994 and 2010, the court had ruled for whistleblowers in only three of 203 cases decided on thei…

Those are pretty damning statistics to be honest.

Just so I know I am understanding you correctly you believe that more that 1.5% of the cases did have merit and if those cases would have been handled outside of the whistleblower legislation they probably would have been more successful?

Based on the statistics you provided that seems like a reasonable assumption. Do you happen to have any stats on the percentage of successful cases using more conventional proceedings. I feel like its probably a pretty hard metric to track.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#163
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail on the head but you did not actually say it. The current system is NOT part of the legal system. We are not arguing about the legal system. We are arguing about the administrative system these administrators/professors put in the place. The exact ones ruining students lives on a whim. If you want to say the professors/admins get the right to challenge ones accuser then they can no longer be involved…

> Curious how you feel about anonymous whistleblowers? If the legislation survives for 50 years (it's not quite halfway there today), I'll accept it has passed the test of time. Until then, I'll likely continue to view it as a mistake but likely not for the reasons you expect. Quoting from the Wikipedia page[0]: > Between 1994 and 2010, the court had ruled for whistleblowers in only three of 203 cases decided on thei…

Seems like whistelblowing by teachers prevents tens of thousands of cases of child abuse--otherwise how will little Billy's twelve consecutive black eyes get reported? And yeah, a lot of times little Billy just face plants into his toys and sometimes child services does too much or too little but it is better than nothing.

Also, I believe those stats are about claims of retaliation to whisteblowers, which when adjudicated did not succeed on the merits. The information supplied by these whisteblowers may have been founded.

Whistleblower legislation is not about anonymity per se--it is supposed to encourage whistleblowers to engage with officials and inspector generals rather than make anonymous leaks to the press, collude, be abused, or do nothing. Imperfect for certain but better than nothing.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#164
post #110
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Break the system. Flood it with bogus complaints until the people in charge learn why anonymous accusations are a bad idea. I’m surprised this hasn’t happened already. Since it’s anonymous I would expect 4chan to flood all these stupid policies. Maybe they selectively review and pursue.

You expect 4chan to fight against anonymity?

I expect 4chan to abuse anonymous reporting systems to troll people.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not, because there are differences between private actors and the gov't I am going to keep my response short to ensure that you cannot possibly misunderstand it. Point 1. There are principles that matter, even if it a private company doing the bad thing. Agree or disagree with this directly. Point 2. Yes, if the government does bad thing X, it could be worse than if a private company does it, but it is still b…

1. too vague for me to agree - what principles? whose principles? even then, I'm not sure that all principles that apply to gov't, apply to private actors. for ex. some might say it's a good principle to be religious, but we don't think that is true for gov't (so we restrict the gov't via the constitution), or the corollary, that it's good for the gov't to not be religious, but not necc. true for the individual. 2. t…

[deleted]

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cases of actual litigation with a big payout are rare, but the cases of people in paid positions meant to prevent big payouts and to make sure employees are speaking to each other and hiring people in the least risky way possible are not. That’s been a huge industry. I’m not arguing that there’s no legitimate level of complaint or job for helping employees relate to each other better, or that people shouldn’t str…

>The cases of actual litigation with a big payout are rare, but the cases of people in paid positions meant to prevent big payouts and to make sure employees are speaking to each other and hiring people in the least risky way possible are not. That’s been a huge industry. What does that have to do with people thinking that complaining that someone called you a "G" means you are now going to be rich? Seems completely…

I am not talking about people wanting to be rich. I am talking about people who want a stable paycheck and a middle class life.

A lot of performative outrage seems to be propping up a very large white collar industry of sensitivity training and related roles, and a lot of it might go away if there were more alternative, stable white collar industries that were related to skills taught in college and did not require constant learning and new skill acquisition.

I also think people who have a hard time learning new skills at the ever increasing pace technology demands lean on performative outrage as a way to scare employers and increase job security. If people felt more stable in their jobs, another chunk of performative outrage would probably disappear.

And I also think a lack of social belonging and attention from things like family and neighbors you’d get from a middle class household experience leads people to use performative outrage to get a fix of attention they’re missing.

I combined a lot of those ideas/what I’m saying may not have been clear, but those are all side effects of a shrinking middle class and pathways to the stable mass achievable paychecks that enable it.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The cases of actual litigation with a big payout are rare, but the cases of people in paid positions meant to prevent big payouts and to make sure employees are speaking to each other and hiring people in the least risky way possible are not. That’s been a huge industry. What does that have to do with people thinking that complaining that someone called you a "G" means you are now going to be rich? Seems completely…

I am not talking about people wanting to be rich. I am talking about people who want a stable paycheck and a middle class life. A lot of performative outrage seems to be propping up a very large white collar industry of sensitivity training and related roles, and a lot of it might go away if there were more alternative, stable white collar industries that were related to skills taught in college and did not require c…

>I am not talking about people wanting to be rich. I am talking about people who want a stable paycheck and a middle class life.

You're just playing semantics with my words. Well past my meaning. Sure, not rich. Comfortable. Some people might call that rich, but they are obviously much more poor.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#168

Anonymous accusations are a fine way to harass and intimidate anyone you disagree with or have a grudge against. As the article points out, it's a fine tool for oppression. A fundamental right we have in the US is the right to face our accusers, for good reason. Here's the text of it: > Sixth Amendment > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury…

Yes, exactly. And I understand that you are not suggesting that Stanford is violating the 6th amendment, since this is not a criminal prosecution. What you're saying is that Stanford should adopt the same line of reasoning embodied in the 6th amendment, to the extent that being accused in this fashion is a very high cost, and that the accuser should not be able to escape accountability for making false or misleading…

I wonder if the same thing would work on social networks?

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#169
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good clarification - there are so many "it's not the government, constitution doesn't apply" comments that ignore that fact that the constitution is generally good advice for large institutions and it's a valid criticism when their policies differ, even of there is no legal requirement

The point is, in the context of law, you can't just advocate for an agreement over a gentleman's handshake: you have to be in a position to enforce it. And enforcing restrictions on speech of this sort affects far more than just college professors with unpopular opinions. The 1st Amendment also covers anonymous speech.

Does it or another part of the US constitution protect their anonymity?
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